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The Chris Wallace Show
Some Democrats Still Calling For President Biden To Step Down As Party's Presidential Candidate After Poor Debate Performance And NATO Summit Press Conference; Donald Trump Distancing Himself From More Extreme Rightwing Policy Positions; Donald Trump To Announce His Vice Presidential Candidate; Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer Calls On Congress To Sharply Limit Supreme Court's Ruling On Presidential Immunity; Donald Trump Using Supreme Court Decision On Presidential Immunity To Contest Felony Charges And Convictions; Target Stores No Longer Taking Checks As Method Of Payment From Customers; Release Of Sequel To Movie "Gladiator" Announced. Aired 10- 11a ET
Aired July 13, 2024 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:32]
CHRIS WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, and welcome. It's time to break down the big stories with some smart people. Today we're asking, more than two weeks after his dreadful debate and two days after his high-stakes news conference, how much trouble is Joe Biden still in?
Then, the clock is ticking. Washington and the political world still wondering, who will Donald Trump pick as his V.P.?
And check it out -- Targets new policy which does not make me happy.
The panel is here and ready to go. So sit back, relax, and let's talk about it.
Up first, President Biden is spending the weekend with family at his beach home as doubts continue to cloud his political future. Despite an all-out effort this week to answer Democrats concerns, there are still questions about his fitness, and some in his party keep pushing him to drop out.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another candidate would give us a much better chance to win.
WALLACE: Democrats still divided over whether Joe Biden should keep running.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Should that conversation continue?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN, (D-SC): No, it shouldn't.
He's earned that right, and I am going to give him that much respect. WALLACE: The president is still firm he's staying in.
JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe I'm the best qualified to govern, and I think I'm the best qualified to win.
WALLACE: But with his party watching every move and word, Biden still committed some embarrassing gaffes.
BIDEN: The president of Ukraine, ladies and gentlemen, President Putin.
I wouldn't have picked Vice President Trump to be vice president if I think she's qualified to be president.
REP. BRAD SCHNEIDER, (D-IL): We can't have a situation where every day were holding our breath.
WALLACE: A poll this week shows two-thirds of Americans think Biden should drop out.
REP. JIM HIMES, (D-CT): All I can do is look at the numbers right now. No president has ever won with a 37 percent approval rating.
WALLACE: But the window for a change is closing with just weeks left before delegates officially nominate Biden.
HIMES: This needs to be resolved, I don't know, in the next five to seven days.
WALLACE: The president doesn't seem concerned.
BIDEN: If all of a sudden I show up at the convention, everybody says we want somebody else, that's the democratic process. It's not going to happen.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
WALLACE: Here with me today, podcaster and author Kara Swisher, Reihan Salam, president of the Manhattan Institute and "National Review" contributing editor, "New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and conservative pollster and "New York Times" columnist Kristen Soltis Anderson. Welcome back everyone.
Kristen, how much trouble is Joe Bidens still in?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, FOUNDING PARTNER, ECHELON INSIGHTS: He's still in a lot of trouble, because even though he gave a performance after the NATO summit that some people said was reassuring, he nevertheless, that night had a couple more defections from members if his own party in Congress saying it's time to step aside. The reality for Joe Biden is that every single thing he does from now until Election Day and beyond is going to be under incredible scrutiny. The slightest missteps are going to keep people being nervous, and it's going to make it hard for him to pivot to any kind of positive message that he will need to turn the polls around to make this a more competitive race that is truly winnable for him. WALLACE: But Lulu, I want to focus -- forget the election. Let's focus
first on the nomination. Back in 1968, I saw a party turn on a president, Lyndon Johnson, and force him to drop out of the race for reelection. I just don't feel that same urgency, that same unity as I did back in 1968.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, "NEW YORK TIMES" JOURNALIST AND PODCAST HOST: There is no unity. I think the Democratic Party right now is in a state of almost civil war. I mean, it's not pitchforks and a lot of anger, but there certainly is a lot of, I think, feeling that they just don't know what the way forward is right now. They don't know quite what to do.
The best-case scenario would have been if Biden had said, you know what, for the good of the party and the good of the country, I'm going to step down. I'm going to allow this process to go forward and it will be an organized process and we'll have someone who will take over.
WALLACE: Which is, just incidentally, what LBJ did in 1968.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this is not what, clearly, President Joe Biden is willing to do. And so that leaves the dissenters feeling that there might not be a path forward to removing him.
WALLACE: Let's get to this question of the party and what it has the will to do. There was a moment earlier this week when it seemed Democrats might revolt.
[10:05:03]
The president said he was firmly committed to staying in this race, to running this race to the end, and to beating Donald Trump. But former speaker Nancy Pelosi refused to take that decision as final.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want him to run?
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D-CA): I want him to do whatever he decides to do, and that's the way it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Kara, will Democrats force Biden out, or will buy fall?
KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Again, as I've said, Biden will leave when Biden wants to leave. And I think that was very deft by Nancy Pelosi, what he decides to do. He did decide. When he decides to decide another decision, right, essentially, which she so clever in that regard, speaking of someone who is older, but she's a sharp as attack.
He's got four options. One is he steps down and they win, right, with a new thing. He's a hero. One is he steps down and they lose. No one blames him. One is he doesn't step down and they lose. His legacy is diminished rather significantly. And the other is he wins, which is like, well great. We're all wrong. Joltin Joe, great, fantastic.
WALLACE: So do you -- what's your feel right now? Are the Democrats going to get their act together and force him out? Or are we going to see this civil war?
KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER": I think it's akin to having a parent like this. I have a parent like this. Like, it's just like you can't convince them unless they want to do it. And it's very, very difficult. So everyone is being very polite and try to push along the edges. I don't know. I think if he doesn't want to do it, and the influence of Hunter Biden and Jill Biden is really strong.
WALLACE: But sometimes the kids take the keys away from the parents.
SWISHER: You think I think Hunter Biden should be in any of these meetings? I do not. Nobody does.
WALLACE: No. But I'm not talking literally. I'm saying, in other words, sometimes people stand up to the old man --
SWISHER: But have you ever tried to get the keys away from --
WALLACE: Actually, I did, and I did it.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this isn't the kyes. This is the nuclear football. This is the nuclear football. This is the problem. Now the world talking about this is like this elderly man that we need to respect, and he's the president, but it's -- he's the head of the free world.
ANDERSON: And I was very struck by his comment during the press conference where he said the only thing that will make me step down as if the polls say I will lose. And I thought I am very glad I am not Joe Biden's pollster right now, because that woman, who I know, who is lovely, is the most powerful woman on planet earth right now. And this is insane.
WALLACE: Reihan, do you see the Democrats get Biden to drop out movement moving on or folding?
REIHAN SALAM, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, with every day that passes, it becomes less and less likely that he can in fact be replaced as a practical matter. You're also seeing a really interesting ideological cleavage. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is making no bones about being very supportive of President Biden. If you look at Ilhan Omar, she's being very, very clear. She is not equivocating. She's not playing footsie with the idea of booting Biden from office. It's really striking to see who is advantaged by where Biden is right now and where the Democratic Party is right now and who is disadvantaged by that.
If you look at 2028 contenders, Wes Moore, the very charismatic new governor of Maryland, he's out there campaigning with Joe Biden. Gavin Newsom is nowhere near the idea that he is going to be the white knight who is going to save Democrats. I think a lot of folks have decided that they would rather have Donald Trump back in the White House, Democrats romped in 2026, and then a lot of these folks believe, hey, wait a second, I'm going to have a clear shot at the presidency myself in 2028, including folks on the left.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Thats a very cynical reading, that's a very cynical reading of what is going on in the Democratic Party. I don't, I don't think that that --
SALAM: You don't think any of them are thinking about their ambitions. They don't think any of them --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm not saying that they're not thinking about their ambitions. But I don't think that anyone truly would like to see Donald Trump in the White House in the Democratic Party. And I also think the most interesting thing to me, talking about sort of who wants Biden to stay is that Donald Trump and his team are desperate for Biden to stay. You have seen this over and over in statements that they've made quietly. They want to run against Joe Biden. They think they can beat Joe Biden, and they do not want to see the Democratic Party switch horses.
WALLACE: Kara, I've got to say that I don't think the Biden campaign has been especially effective so far. This last week, I thought they were brilliant in terms of, one, on Monday coming out with that very strong statement, which I read earlier. I'm in it. I'm not leaving. I'm going to be Trump. Then reaching out to the Congressional Black Caucus, which is called the conscience of the party on Capitol Hill and getting their support. I mean, they are making it as hard as possible for the Democrats to coalesce around a get Biden out --
SWISHER: Yes, because you've got to come for him. You've got to come for me. And so what he's doing is waiting them out, and that's the strategy, it looks like, because it's very hard not to wait him out. And someone's got to move, and a lot of these people, that I agree with you in part, Reihan, because I do think everyone is modulated, figuring out what's four years from now.
[10:10:04]
WALLACE: Let me just break in. I want to get on one more subject. Assuming that Biden stays in and gets nominated, one of the questions is, can a climb out of the hole that he is in now that you talked about earlier, Kristen? Since the debate, the respected "Cook Political Report" has moved its Electoral College ratings in six contests away from Biden towards Trump. Can Biden turn it around by November?
ANDERSON: Absolutely. Anything is possible, because we have an economy that could be getting better. Donald Trump could do anything between now and then, and an awful lot of Americans don't like Donald Trump either. The best thing going for Joe Biden is the fact that he is not Donald Trump and that he's running against Donald Trump. In an alternate universe where it's Joe Biden versus almost any other Republican, I can't even imagine what the numbers would be. But it's always possible. Anything is possible. We live in such polarized times that even with that absolutely disastrous debate performance, there were polls coming out this week that showed the race tied.
WALLACE: There's a new poll that shows Biden actually in the lead. ANDERSON: And so it is absolutely possible for Joe Biden to --
WALLACE: Lulu, quickly, can Biden turn this all around, stick in, get the nomination, and win reelection?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think it's going to be a really tough slog. Again, I'm with Kristen that anything is possible. I read the polls and I'm like, I don't know what's going on half the time. I mean, but I find it all very confusing. I am sort of like what should I be looking at? What should I be thinking? I respect pollsters very much, but I just think it's going to be very, very hard for him to win.
WALLACE: While Bidens been dealing with his future, Donald Trump's been moving more to the middle on staunchly conservative issues. How long will he stay in the center lane?
Then overruled, the new push in Congress to limit the Supreme Court's immunity decision.
And later, are you not entertained? We'll find out who on the panel is excited about a heavily anticipated sequel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:16:58]
WALLACE: All eyes will be on Donald Trump next week because Republicans gather for their convention in Milwaukee and anxiously await Trump's V.P. pick. But it's what Trump has done and not done since the CNN presidential debate that's raising some eyebrows.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The Democrat party is divided in chaos and having a full-scale breakdown.
WALLACE: Donald Trump reveling in Joe Biden's political firestorm at a rally this way. But since the CNN debate two weeks ago, Trump has kept a remarkably low profile.
TRUMP: Thank you very much.
WALLACE: Hitting only one other campaign stop, with a third scheduled later today.
CROWD: USA! USA! USA!
TRUMP: Thank you.
WALLACE: Uncharacteristically letting his opponent have the spotlight amid calls for Biden to step aside.
TRUMP: The truth is it doesn't matter who they nominate.
WALLACE: Trump also appearing to move more to the center on policy ahead of the Republican convention, approving a new party platform which drops the call for a federal abortion ban and removes language condemning the Supreme Court's legalization of same-sex marriage, a move many see as Trump's way to win middle of the road suburban voters.
TRUMP: It's not targeting moderates. It's common sense.
WALLACE: Trump also distancing himself from Project 2025, the 900-page conservative manifesto put together by Trump allies that calls for firing a federal employees and replacing them with Trump loyalists.
OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Donald Trump knows that what is written in this plan and so extreme that it is damaging to his possibility of getting elected.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
WALLACE: So Kara is Trump -- has he really changed. Is he more -- he certainly seems more disciplined. Is he really somewhat more moderate?
SWISHER: No, he's just being more mendacious, and he's just going toward the center because it suits him at the same time. I interviewed Gretchen Whitmer, Governor Whitmer from Michigan this week, and I asked her about the abortion shift, this exact shift, and she goes which version of Donald Trump do want to talk about? I think whatever he decides to do at the time is what he does and he probably doesn't even remember them.
So he's trying to do that, but no one believes that -- he knows about Project 2025. There's video now of him saying he knows about it. He just, whatever suits the moment he says, and he's hoping for people not to remember, which is actually a good bet in America sometimes.
WALLACE: Reihan, has Trump really changed, or is he just listening to a bunch of really smart campaign advisors who are saying, you can't keep wanting the base over and over again, you've got to expand your appeal?
SALAM: Well, my sense is that he is now fully in charge, and so this platform really reflects his fixations, obsessions, and sensibilities. He is not changing. He was always more moderate on these issues than the party. And back in 2016, when he made Mike Pence his running mate, he felt he needed to accommodate those elements as someone who is coming from outside the party and wanted that legitimacy, wanted that support.
Now he feels, rightly or wrongly, that he has such thoroughgoing control over the party that he can shift the party in the direction of his gut instincts, about what will actually get him to win.
[10:20:02]
I'll also say briefly on project 2025, Donald Trump isn't saying that he does not know about Project 25. He said that he finds aspects of it absurd and ridiculous.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, he did say he didn't know about Project 2025. But I also --
SALAM: He said that of the parts that he saw --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't know what it is he said, but I also want to --
(CROSS TALK)
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I also just want to just say something else, which is I do think that there is a genius in the GOP platform that he put out, which is, especially on the issue of abortion, this idea that he's moderated, that this is somehow a new version of the GOP platform.
WALLACE: No condemnation of same sex marriage.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No condemnation, expect that what he talked about in that was fetal personhood. He talked about the 14th Amendment, which is this idea that it is going to be a federal issue if on abortion --
WALLACE: No, no, he said specifically he's leaving it to the state.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But that was -- but no, there were both things in there. They said they were -- I literally just read this. They're both things in there. And the whole point of that is that it appeases both sides. If you talk to people who are pro-life, they are ecstatic with what that said because it was a nod and a wink to a federal abortion ban. And then of course they put the states in there, too, so that people who might have a more moderate position can also be appeased.
WALLACE: Reihan, who understands Donald Trump better?
SALAM: So look, he said that this is a 14th Amendment question, which is why it is up to this states, which is what he has consistently said.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But if it's a 14th Amendment question, it's got to do with the Constitution, so you can't have something that is state's rights and also a constitutional issue.
WALLACE: Let Reihan.
SALAM: So what he's saying and what you're seeing from the pro-life movement is an effort to get on the right side of the person who is the central, most important figure in the Republican Party right now. What I've heard from a lot of folks on the pro-life side is, frankly, anxiety, panic, frustration, and disappointment because he's very much in charge.
WALLACE: OK, this raises the question, however, this is the campaign. Now we're talking about what happens if Trump wins in November. The party platform he just pushed through is more moderate on social issues, while hard line on immigration and tariffs. But the aforementioned Project 2025 calls for a sharp limits on abortion and, for instance, giving the White House more influence over the Justice Department.
So Kristen, if he wins, which Trump are we going to see, campaign Trump or first-term Trump in Trump two?
ANDERSON: When it comes to governing, personnel is policy. To the extent that they are entities out there who are accumulating people who believe in Donald Trump's vision or want to have a lot of power in the federal government, that will have a big impact. The president himself does not decide everything.
At the same time, I think Donald Trump is somewhat more moderate than what we think of as a classical conservative. He exposed that in his first term. But he's not moderate in terms of temperament. So when it comes to things like, am I going to go after my opponents, he's been pretty clear that, yes, he intends to do that, even if on the policy stuff he is a little bit more choose your own adventure.
WALLACE: One indication, you talk about policy being personnel, he's got to pick a vice president than the next few days. And we have a record of where all you guys were back in May. Let's take a look. Reihan, you said Doug Burgum, governor of North Dakota in May. Do you want to change your mind?
SALAM: There are many, many indications pointing to Ohio Senator J.D. Vance. I'm still going to stick with Burgum. So I do think that Burgum brings a lot to the table. I think it's going to be Burgum, but man, all of the smoke as J.D. Vance right now.
WALLACE: Lulu, you said Senator Marco Rubio in May. Now you say?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Now I say Senator Marco Rubio. Similar to him, there's a lot of discussion about J.D. Vance, but I think Rubio brings more to the ticket. Again, same reasoning. He's Latino. He is, you know, is a good talker, and is someone that people trust.
WALLACE: Kristen, two months ago you predicted Congresswoman Elise Stefanik. Are you striking with her?
ANDERSON: I feel like this has turned into a fantasy football draft, and you all just left the number one draft pick on the table. So I'm changing to J.D. Vance. I believe that all of that discussion that we're hearing about him as somebody who can really be a torchbearer for Trumpism in the future is probably accurate. The lineup for the RNC that that night seems to be very Ohio Trumpian, I'll just say. So I think Vance.
WALLACE: Kara, you said Senator Tim Scott, and I know how much you like to admit you're wrong. So are you sticking with Scott?
SWISHER: No, no, no. It's going to be J.D. Vance.
WALLACE: Really?
SWISHER: I think at one point I did say J.D. Vance.
WALLACE: No. You said Scott.
SWISHER: Scott, all right.
WALLACE: Which is you proved my point about how much you hate saying you're wrong.
SWISHER: No. I think it's J.D. Vance.
WALLACE: It is interesting that one of his biggest backers is Donald Trump Jr., and he's going to be speaking that by just before the vice president.
SWISHER: Also, he's confident he's going to win right now, that J.D. Vance is the pick of a candidate who is confident they're going to win. Burgum is the safe choice.
WALLACE: Also, really appeal in the Midwest.
[10:25:01]
Anyway, you won't want to miss the panels hot takes on the Republican convention when they hit me with their best shots later in the program.
But first, not so fast. The Supreme Court's immunity decision now the target of a longshot move on Capitol Hill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: This week, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer called on Congress to sharply limit the Supreme Court's ruling on presidential immunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
[10:30:08]
Presidential immunity is nowhere to be found in the Constitution, and this lawless ruling underscores just how hollow the conservative justices commitment to originalism truly is.
I will work with my colleagues on legislation classifying Trump's election subversion acts as unofficial acts, not subject to immunity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: The conservative majority ruled six to three that a former president, quote, "have some immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts during his tenure in office." Donald Trump called it a big win. While the case was directly related to Trump's role in the January 6th insurrection, the court's decision is having a ripple effect on all of the Trump prosecutions. For instance, Trump's team is now looking to use the ruling as grounds to throw out his criminal conviction in the New York hush money trial.
Reihan, should Congress overrule the Supreme Court on presidential immunity?
SALAM: I think the challenge for Congress, the challenge for Leader Schumer, is that I don't actually think they can do this. The fundamental problem here is that Attorney General Merrick Garland was really reluctant to bring a case in the first place. It took him two- and-a-half years to do it. When they finally did, they basically put together a case that was really hard to sustain. And I think the Supreme Court would have been totally fine with the prosecution had it been under a well-defined, clear statute.
Instead, it's something that did involve acts that the president took that were already clearly well defined as official. The president can actually sack people that he's appointed under his executive power. So that was the big problem here. The case itself was a mess, and they forced the Supreme Courts hand.
WALLACE: Given the filibuster in the Senate and Republican control of the house, Schumer's effort will almost certainly fail. But we've lived without presidential immunity for the life of this country. Kara, should Congress step in and overrule the court?
SWISHER: Well, I think your first part is that they're not going to. Whether they should or not, possibly. Congress can do anything it wants. And that's the whole, that's the role of the legislature to do that. But they're not going to. It's sort of reminds me of tech regulation. It's just not happening. They should, but it isn't. So --
WALLACE: Chief Justice Roberts not only wrote this decision. Back in 2016 he wrote for a unanimous court overturning the conviction of former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell for accepting big loans and expensive gifts. Roberts said, "our concern is not with tawdry tales of Ferraris, Rolexes, and ball gowns. It is instead with the broader legal implications of the government's boundless interpretation of the federal bribery statute." Lulu, when you look at the immunity ruling and you look at the McDonnell, which very sharply limited the ability to prosecute bribery, is the Supreme Court basically giving politicians of get-out-of-jail-free card?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes. I love that quote. It's just this wonderful quote where it says, you know what, if you give people all these things --
WALLACE: Rolexes, Ferraris.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- Rolexes, Ferraris, you know what, it doesn't matter. That isn't bribery. It doesn't matter what our political elected officials do. I think that actually speaks for itself, where this Supreme Court puts its emphasis, it is more concerned with federal overreach than it is with actual corruption.
WALLACE: Kristen, when you look at what the court has done on presidential immunity, what it's done on corruption cases, have they gone too far in protecting politicians?
ANDERSON: Well, what it feels like these opinions are always saying is the Supreme Court begging legislatures to write better laws. And whether it was with this bribery case, or I think about things like them throwing out Chevron deference. I mean, this is not a court that wants to be in the business of making big decisions that they're overriding elected officials. They want the legislature to be legislating clearly and consistently --
WALLACE: So you're saying they're begging Chuck Schumer to say that, for instance --
ANDERSON: I don't know about that they're begging Chuck Schumer --
WALLACE: -- election interference is not an official act?
ANDERSON: Well, what they have been saying is that actually, they as a Supreme Court were uninterested in the decision of what constitutes an official act.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: In the same way --
ANDERSON: So they're handing that decision away.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- get involved in the abortion business. They wanted to get out of the abortion business with when they overturned Roe. And of course that's not exactly what happened.
SALAM: That's right, they wanted it to go back to state legislatures.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: That's not what's happened, though, has it?
SALAM: That is indeed what's happened. And I think that when you're looking at this case in particular --
WALLACE: What are you talking about? They're more in the abortion business than they've ever been? There have been more abortion cases since they ended Roe versus Wade than before.
SALAM: Whenever you move on to a new legal regime --
WALLACE: But you're just contradicting yourself, Reihan.
SALAM: Excuse me, there's going to be a moment when you are going to settle it.
[10:35:00]
But fundamentally what you're seeing happen is this is being settled through the political process. In state after state, you're seeing referendums, you're seeing laws that are being passed to clarify the law. And that I think that that is --
WALLACE: And you see the Supreme Court to challenge it.
I want to move on. Trump's lawyers now say the hush money conviction should be thrown out because the jury heard evidence about what he did as president. And they're challenging the classified documents case because they say that involves actions Trump took as president, even though he took them to Mar-a-Lago as an ex ex-president. So Reihan, is Trump off the hook legally?
SALAM: No, I don't think he is. I think that if you have prosecutors who are doing things under well-defined statutes that our clear and have some meaningful legal precedent, I think the Supreme Court is going to be entirely fine with that. The real issue here was that Jack Smith's case was one that was sweeping, overly broad, and I think that Merrick Garland knew it, because he's a decent guy, very experienced. And that's why he only took this on two-and-a-half years in under intense pressure from the White House.
WALLACE: But what -- the situation you've got now, Kara, is, according to the Supreme Court ruling, and even Amy Coney Barrett wouldn't go along with this, is you can't even use evidence of what the president did as president, an official act, to indicate that he, in fact, broke the law.
SWISHER: That's correct. It's a mess. It's an absolute mess. And maybe it does call for legislative clarity. I mean, eventually we should have our legislators decide these things, not the Supreme Court. I think even this Supreme Court shouldn't be coming in on this stuff. It should be legislatures deciding things clearly. But the problem is our legislators can't decide on lunch. Dems in disarray. the GOP was in disarray. It's just, nothing can get passed. And so that's the issue.
WALLACE: Kristen, are you comfortable with the where this stands now and the Supreme Court saying that, for instance, you can -- not only can you not be prosecuted for official acts, but you can't use official acts if they were done in service of committing a crime?
ANDERSON: So I feel like the Amy Coney Barrett opinion in that case was probably the closest to the mark for where I'd like to have seen things end up, where she did make a few statements, for instance, I don't actually think this election interference stuff counts as an official act. A little bit more clarity on what constitutes official might have been helpful, but it's clear the majority did not want to touch that.
WALLACE: From beating the rap to beating the heat, the new way to stay cool that's become a fashion trend.
Plus, put your pens away. Target's new rule aiming to end an old tradition.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:42:11]
WALLACE: Once again, it's time to get our groups yea or nay on some big talkers. Up first, a story that hits me in the pocketbook. Starting Monday, Target will no longer accept personal checks because of the, quote, extremely low volume of shoppers using them. To make matters worse, Target isn't alone. Whole Foods and Aldi have already stopped accepting checks. But some stores, like Walmart and Macy's still do. Now, well I wouldn't write a check at a store, I routinely pay bills using, yes, this checkbook.
SWISHER: What is that?
WALLACE: I fear I'm headed into a buzzsaw here. Kara, are you yea or nay on using a checkbook to write checks to pay bills?
SWISHER: I don't even know what that is. Are you churning your butter still? That's ridiculous. Why are you writing checks? Why are you writing checks? Everything is digital now. Phone, you put the phone down and it pays for it.
WALLACE: The phone pays for it?
SWISHER: It's a piece of paper with your account number on it.
(CROSS TALK)
WALLACE: All right, let me, wait, I want to bring you in, Kristen, maybe you'll be a little less north. We did some research here. Wait a minute. In 1990, Americans wrote 19 billion checks. OK, I know that was 30 years ago. As of 2022, that's now down to a still healthy 3.4 billion checks. Kristen, are you part of the Kara crowd, or are you part of the discerning group of people who still use checks and balance their checkbook every month?
ANDERSON: I want to help you get your Apple Wallet set up on your phone as soon as you stop tapings, so you don't even have to pull a card out of your wallet. You just put your phone up and it pays. It's wonderful. The future is great. Chris, come with us. It's wonderful.
WALLACE: Next, in case, you haven't noticed, it's hot outside. I said this was going to be a tough segment for me, because a growing fashion trend to help you stay cool. You may have seen these portable neck fans, which kind of look like headsets. There a rechargeable battery device that are bladeless, but somehow keep you from sweating too much that become more popular this summer, especially at concerts and sporting events. Lulu --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I just thought I'd bring mine.
WALLACE: I feel like I already know the answer.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I just thought I'd bring mine because, you know, it is actually hot in here, and it's a wonderful device.
WALLACE: Is it on right now?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, it's not on right now because I'm trying to figure out where the button is. But it blows in three different --
SWISHER: Flowings.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Flowings, yes.
WALLACE: Volumes?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Volumes? I don't know what the word is.
WALLACE: Settings.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Settings, thank you. And it's wonderful. It keeps you cool. It kind of looks hip. I feel like one of the young'uns, and my kid has one, and I highly recommend it.
[10:45:00]
WALLACE: Reihan, I can totally see Lulu at an Olivia Rodrigo concert with her daughter with a neck fan. You, I'm not so sure.
SALAM: I would not wear one myself. That said, I will say when the humidity is above 70 percent and you're wearing a tie, it is very challenging. So I get the idea.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: There you go.
WALLACE: Here we go. We've got a prop.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: There you go, there you go.
WALLACE: Finally, a new take on a classic movie -- 24 years after "Gladiator" won the Oscar for best picture, director Ridley Scott is back -- I've lost control of this. Ridley Scott is back in the Colosseum with a sequel starring Paul Mescal, Denzel Washington, and Pedro Pascal. Here's a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have something in you. I knew it from the start.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rage. And rage is your gift.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Kara, I mean, look at that. Sometimes it's like me dealing with you on the panel, that rhinoceros. Are you yea or nay on "Gladiator Two."
SWISHER: This is my single favorite movie of all time. We mortals are but shadows and dust. I'm so excited, Mescal and Pascal.
WALLACE: And Denzel.
SWISHER: And Denzel, oh, my God, you're right.
WALLACE: Reihan.
SALAM: I'm pumped about it. I think that we have a lot to learn from classical antiquity. And I think that this will hopefully get people to start reading Cicero --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Oh, no, no.
SALAM: -- and to really revisit the classics. Maybe some young people will want to learn Latin after --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It doesn't all have to be about classical education.
WALLACE: And pay for their tickets with checks.
SWISHER: No.
WALLACE: The panel is back with their takes on hot stories or what will be in the news before it's news. That's right after the break.
What is an Apple Wallet? Explain that to me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:51:50]
WALLACE: It's time for our panel's special takes on what's happening, or predictions of what we should be looking out for. And we've asked again to focus on the Republican convention next week and GOP nominee Donald Trump. So Lulu, hit me with your best shot.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Where in the world is Melania Trump? Well, it turns out that she has been pretty absent in this round of her husband campaigning, but she will actually be appearing at the GOP convention. It's not really clear she's going to have a speaking role, but she is going to show that they are still married, and she might perhaps still be willing, although that's unclear, to be the first lady if indeed he wins.
WALLACE: Reihan, you have some advice for how Trump could broaden his support, reach out to new voters at the convention.
SALAM: That's right. So many were surprised to learn that the Republican National Convention, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis will be speaking. Now, this seems pretty big of him, pretty magnanimous of President Trump. This is very much his show, right? And the fact that he had someone who was hated rival is a big deal. But he hasn't invited former South Carolina governor Nikki Haley for a speaking slot. I think it would be a really, really big show of party unity and strength were he to have her speak. Nikki Haley has released her delegates and encouraged them to actually back Trump this time around. I think that he should reciprocate.
WALLACE: And might actually attract some voters who he very much needs.
Kara, best shot?
SWISHER: Well, usually I think about Donald Trump, hello, he lied. But in this case, some of the things he's saying are a little frightening and chilling. This week on his list of the damned, he added Mark Zuckerberg, saying he better watch his back essentially. I think it's a heinous thing for a presidential candidate to threaten someone, and you know I'm critic of Mark Zuckerberg. But it was, it was terrifying, because he didn't like what the donations he made about election fraud, which was to try to protect us against election fraud that Donald Trump is trying to take vengeance.
WALLACE: So the moderate move by Trump has its limits?
SWISHER: Everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie. Sorry.
WALLACE: Kristen, you have some thoughts about next Thursday, which is the big final night of the convention. ANDERSON: There's a somewhat unconventional choice for who will be the warmup act for Donald Trump at the very, and the choice is UFC's Dana White. This is going to have a real fight night atmosphere.
WALLACE: The UFC, Ultimate Fighting Championship.
ANDERSON: Ultimate Fighting Championship, yes. Donald Trump has been very big in that world for a while. He shows up at UFC events and the crowd cheers for him. And so this is just a reminder, Donald Trump has this whole life outside of politics. Instead of having someone from the political realm introduce him, he's going for someone from the world of fighting.
WALLACE: Dana White is going to be the guy who actually introduces Donald Trump?
ANDERSON: Supposedly, yes. Or he's at least speaking --
WALLACE: It's interest, the campaign is doing a lot of microtargeting like bartenders and waiters in Nevada on the tips issue, or security moms. They really are going after people. And I know the whole idea a masculine, strong image.
Anyway, I have a best shot of my own. Over the last year, I've been working on my latest book.
[14:55:01]
And today I'm excited to share the cover of "Countdown 1960, The Behind Scenes Story of the 312 Days that Changed America's Politics Forever." It's the inside account of the race between John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon, including, as you can see there on the cupboard, the first ever televised presidential debate. I also explore the parallels to current politics, because the 1960 election, as I report, may have really been stolen, and a candidate had to decide whether to contest it or go along with the peaceful transfer of power. "Countdown 1960" will be out on October 8th and is available for preorder right now gang.
Gang, thank you all for being here, and thank you for spending part of your day with us. We'll see you right back here next week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
