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First of All with Victor Blackwell

Congress Passes Bill to Avoid Government Shutdown; Rep. James Clyburn, (D-SC), Is Interviewed About Government Shutdown, Elon Musk, Presidential Pardons, Clemency; Elon Musk Flexes Political Influence In Spending Fight; Lawmakers, Activist Push For More Presidential Pardons, Clemency. Harvard Law Sees Drop In Black, Hispanic Enrollment; Asian American Groups Accuse Radio Host Of Anti-Asian Rhetoric; Why Aren't Top Holiday Songs As Diverse As Listeners? Aired 8-9a ET

Aired December 21, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Stay warm. Thank you. All right, first of all is up next with Victor Blackwell. Victor, what do you have coming up?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: So Congressman James Clyburn is here to react to the deal to avoid a government shutdown. He was the majority whip for the Democrats in the House. We'll get his thoughts on what made it into the agreement, what was left out and the path forward for Democrats next year.

Also, the story of a family separated right before the holidays. A mother misses an immigration hearing as she recovered from giving birth to newborn twins, gets deported with those American born children. You're going to hear from the father, also a U.S. Citizen who's trying to reunite his family.

Also, if I ask you to sing Silent Night, first few lyrics, are you saying silent night, holy night, or in my mind?

WALKER: The first.

BLACKWELL: The first.

WALKER: The first.

BLACKWELL: It depends on which version you listen to. I'll tell you what I noticed about the diversity in the song's widely considered holiday hits. So that's coming up.

WALKER: Have a great show.

BLACKWELL: All right. Thanks so much. Let's get started.

[08:01:15]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first of all, if there was a holiday following every deadline, maybe Congress would get more done. After a lot of tension over whether we'd be in a government shutdown right now, House Republicans saw the demands for President-elect Trump and Elon Musk and kind of said, sorry, it's Christmas, I've got places to be.

And here's what Republicans finally did agree on passing with Democrat support. It's a slimmed down government spending plan. It'll fund the government through mid-March. It includes important measures like disaster aid and money for farmers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: This is America first legislation because it allows us to be set up to deliver for the American people. In January, we will make a sea change in Washington. President Trump will return to D.C. and to the White House and we will have Republican control of the Senate and the House. Things are going to be very different around here. This was a necessary step to bridge the gap to put us into that moment where we can put our fingerprints on the final decisions on spending for 2025.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Well, the Senate separately stepped up and passed funding for pediatric cancer research. But there were important items still left out of the deal. One bipartisan bill would have continued to reimburse recipients of food stamps who had those food stamps stolen. It happens often through skimming devices that get their EBT card information. And because of a bill passed two years ago, states have been able to replace more than 150 million in stolen benefits with federal money and that helped more than 300,000 low income SNAP households across the country according to the center on Budget Policy Priorities that didn't make it into the updated deal.

Let's get insight on how this all went down from a long time member of Democratic leadership in the House, Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina is with us. Good morning to you, sir.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Good morning. Thank you very much for having me.

BLACKWELL: Thank you for being with me. Speaker Johnson says this deal is good for the American people. Do you agree?

CLYBURN: Yes, I do. I think it's very good. As you said, it was slimmed down. Only one year on the farm bill and the whole thing expired at the end of March. And so I do believe what we did was good for the American people.

I think that Leader Jeffries and his leadership team did a great job in their negotiations and got a good product. And so I was pleased to support this.

As many know, I had an issue. I had to come home for a funeral. You may remember Kay Patterson, the senator who led the fight to bring down those Confederate flags from state houses all over America was penalized on yesterday. And the family requested that I be there. So I didn't get to cast my vote on the final vote, but I did cast my vote the day before to stop that attempt to put the debt limit in the bill.

BLACKWELL: And so let's talk about the lifting the debt ceiling that failed in the Thursday night vote. It's one of the elements that angered Democrats and some Republicans, bipartisan rejection of that, however, that's what Trump wanted. You have talked in the past about eliminating the debt ceiling. Axios is reporting that Leader Jeffries is privately having conversations about whether to embrace eliminating that. So if that were to come up in this next Congress, would you support it, eliminating the debt ceiling?

[08:05:03]

CLYBURN: Yes, I would. For the entire time that I've been in the Congress, I've been advocating for eliminating the debt ceiling. I do believe when you have this kind of artificial activity going on, it takes away from our ability to be the stewards that we are elected to be. I do believe that every member of Congress has a responsibility to his or her constituents that you be good students of the taxpayers' money. And you can do that without these artificial limits that seem to start discussions and many times hold up the government from doing an effective job. You know, the country in the world is doing this.

BLACKWELL: So let me ask you one additional element here. That's your vote. But as I said, Axios is reporting that Hakeem Jeffries is considering embracing it. Would you encourage him to come out publicly for it?

CLYBURN: Well, if I have private conversations with him, I will tell him where I stand on it. I've just told you in the country, the whole world, where I stand on it. And of course, I'll be pleased to let him know why I feel the way I do and leave him to make his own decisions about it. But I believe it'll be a good thing to do.

BLACKWELL: So this is the first episode in which Congress is seeing what role Elon Musk might play in a Trump administration and with Republican leadership. So, what is your takeaway? What do you see from this that portends for what will happen in the next session?

CLYBURN: Well, you know, Elon Musk is a very smart man. He's a very rich man. The fact of the matter is all of us have our roles to play, and we ought to really do what we can to play them well. And I do think that Elon Musk, though he's been a very astute businessman, he is not good at government and he ought to leave that alone. This thing could have been done 24 hours earlier if he had not taken the government as a toy of his.

One hundred tweets in a few hours against legislation to help children keep our farmers in business, to recover communities from disasters. Why would you do that? Government is not a toy. I think Elon Musk and a few others look upon this as some kind of a game that they want to play.

We are playing with people's lives here. And we as elected officials ought not be giving up our responsibilities to someone who has never been elected to anything. No matter how rich he is, that doesn't give him license to practice in the field that many of us have been in most of our lives.

BLACKWELL: What was -- speaking of elections, Elon Musk threatened not only Republicans that potentially stood in the way of President Trump's agenda. He tweeted out this week that he's going to be funding, quote, "moderate candidates in heavily Democratic districts" to target members of your party.

DCCC can't outspend him. So how do Dems navigate that? We saw what concerted efforts from, for example, AIPAC against Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman, who'll be leaving Congress at the end of this year, what happens there? How do Democrats navigate someone who says, I'll just throw money at races to get you out?

CLYBURN: Well, you outwork them. That's what you do. You outwork them.

Look, I'm a child of the 60s. I grew up here in South Carolina. I missed a vote yesterday because I was a part of eulogizing the gentleman from very modest backgrounds who brought that flag down off the State House dome and started that effort all over the south to get rid of all of these Confederate emblems. We did that with a lot of money against us. When I worked with John Lewis back in the 60s, a lot of money and power was against us.

We did what we had to do. And I don't know of a single Democrat who is a friend of Elon Musk's money, because we stay close to our constituents and we will outwork him.

[08:10:02]

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you one more element here about pardons. Earlier this month, you suggested that President Biden should not only pardon the people who the president-elect has highlighted as potential targets of prosecution, those around the January 6th committee and others, Jack Smith. But you said that President Biden should also pardon President-elect Trump. I wonder if you've had any conversations with the President about that in the time since.

CLYBURN: You may recall when I was asked that question, I said that and I believe that. I think the end needs to be clear. And I would ask your listeners to please think about this whole issue. What has the Supreme Court done with the president? They have immunized him for anything he will do as president.

And we need to get our country going together, going forward, working together. And so, yes, that is for federal offenses. The president -- the former president has been convicted for state offenses. Those 34 convictions were state convictions. They're not federal.

And so he will not be absolved or pardoned for anything at the state level. And now we see that Jack Smith has now recommended that his federal charges be dismissed or thrown out. So this is why I think the people need to really focus on the country and not worry about what our animosities might be. I'm not a Trumpster by any means. I'm not a fan of anything that he stands for. BLACKWELL: Yes.

CLYBURN: But I am a fan of this great country. And I want to see an atmosphere exist when all of us, Democrats and Republicans, can march together in order to make life better for all of our constituents.

BLACKWELL: And we got to go. But have you heard from or spoken with the president about that?

CLYBURN: No, not this subject. I have spoken with him about his clemency powers in a broader sense. As you know, I was the one that raised the issue that they ought to pardon his son, which he did. And I think that was a good thing.

BLACKWELL: Congressman James Clyburn, always good to start the show with you, sir. Thank you very much.

CLYBURN: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: And if I don't speak with you, Merry Christmas.

CLYBURN: And happy New Year to you as well.

BLACKWELL: All right. Thank you so much.

We have an update in one of the stories that we're committed to covering on this show, what the governor of Missouri just decided in the case of a former officer convicted of killing a black man, Cameron Lamb, at his home.

Plus, Trump's border czar says that families could be separated during mass deportations, but it just happened under Biden. The story of a father who was a U.S. citizen now pleading for help to be reunited with his wife and American born twins who were all deported. Wait until you hear why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:53]

BLACKWELL: A former Kansas City police officer who shot and killed a man at his home is now out of prison early. Missouri's Republican governor Mike Parson announced the clemency Friday despite major pushback from the family of Cameron Lamb. Eric DeValkenaere was convicted in 2021 for killing Lamb, who was 26 years old. Prosecutors argued that police should not have been on the property and that the shooting scene was staged to back up their claims that Lamb pointed a gun at DeValkenaere's partner. When we learned that this was being considered, I spoke to Cameron's mother and stepfather and I asked how they were preparing for this eventuality.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AQIL BEY, STEPFATHER OF CAMERON LAMB: How do you take a pen and disqualify life of my son? You know, I mean, he was a father, you know, he was a brother. He wanted to see his children. His children wanted to see him. So, how you discount his life if there was nothing?

LAURIE BEY, MOTHER OF CAMERON LAMB: I have not put up a Christmas tree in my home just because in 2019 my son went to my basement and got my Christmas tree, brought it upstairs for me to put it together. I have not been able to do that since 2019. That is something that I don't know when I will be able to come to grips with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Governor Parson wraps up his term in a few weeks, and the incoming governor of Missouri had also vowed to release Eric DeValkenaere.

A man in Texas is trying to reunite his family after his wife and their four children were unexpectedly deported to Mexico. Two of the children are newborn twin girls, and the twins were born in mid- September in Houston, Texas. So on December 11th, they were deported. And CNN spoke with the father, Federico Arellano, who is also a U.S. Citizen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FEDERICO ARELLANO, WIFE AND KIDS DEPORTED TO MEXICO (through translator): When I get home, I get sad seeing all the things of my children. I would like for them to return my family just as they took it away from me. Why do they do that? Why doing this during this time of the year when we had plans, we had it all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:20:07]

BLACKWELL: Well, for first of all, my colleague Gonzalo Alvarado from CNN Espanol looked into how this all happened.

GONZALO ALVARADO, CNN EN ESPANOL CORRESPONDENT: Federico Arellano, a 24-year-old U.S. born citizen, says that he never expected to come back home empty handed on December 10 after his wife Christina Salazar and their four children were deported back to Mexico. Among the children were the three month old twin baby girls who were born in Houston in mid-September following an immigration appointment they said they had at the immigration offices in Houston, a situation that, according to Arellano, took them by surprise.

According to a statement sent to CNN from a spokesperson of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, Salazar, a 23-year-old Mexican national, failed to report to a scheduled immigration hearing on October 9 and that her removal to Mexico along with her companion children took place on December 11, who then were put on a plane bound to the Mexican border city of Reynosa where, according to Arellano, they don't have any family or friends.

Silvia Mintz, an immigration attorney who's representing the family in this case, says that it's not that her client voluntarily refused to show up to this court hearing on October 9. It was because she was recuperating from an emergency cesarean section to give birth to the twins.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SILVIA MINTZ, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: Christina was supposed to give birth on October 13, but she had complications with the pregnancy and she gave birth on the middle of September. Christina notified her supervision officer, the one that was monitoring her since she was released from immigration, and the supervision officer told her that they were going to take care of the issues with the court at the next meeting. So Christina assumed that the supervision officer was going to communicate with the judge and the court and it didn't happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVARADO: The statement from ICE also highlights that Salazar entered illegally to the U.S. on June 28 near the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, who then was released the following day and enrolled in the alternatives to Detention program to which, according to the statement, she violated the conditions of this agreement between November 22 and December 6.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALVARADO: Were you aware that she was violating these agreements on this program and the alternatives to detention?

MINTZ: I know that she was placed on the program of alternative to detention, but I -- this is the first time that I hear that she was violating any of the terms. I do know that she missed the hearing and she missed it because circumstances beyond her control that made it impossible for her to show up.

ALVARADO: Did you feel this case might be resolved before Trump gets into office again on January 20?

MINTZ: Although we are hopeful. I don't -- I am not certain that we can get it done before January 20. But then the rest of the case is not going to be decided before January 20th because we need to file a motion to reopen with the judge. We need to file the petition for Christina from Federico. And all of that takes months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVARADO: Mintz also says that prior to the deportation, her client and her husband didn't have any legal representation under asylum cases for Christina and two of their children. And she says that now she's taking this case pro bono. While Salazar and her four children are now in their home state of Michoacan awaiting for a miracle to happen, one that Arellano says will bring them together as a family back in Texas.

Gonzalo Alvarado, CNN, Los Angeles.

BLACKWELL: All right, Gonzalo, thank you for that.

Harvard's law school is now the latest to report a drop in Black and Hispanic enrollment. The president of Harvard's Black Law Student association worries that this will put more pressure on fellow students of color. He'll join me next to explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:33]

BLACKWELL: Harvard's law school has a long list of ground breaking black graduates. Barack and Michelle Obama, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown, Jackson, I could go on, but this week it's the incoming class of students that's getting attention. Harvard's newspaper, the Crimson, looked at new data from Harvard's law first year class from 43 black students were enrolled. The class of 2027 will have just 19. The Crimson says that there have not been that few since the 1960s.

The number of Hispanic students dropped too, from 63 to 32. Now, these Harvard numbers are new, but we've been reporting on similar data from universities across the country after the end of affirmative action in college admissions.

A spokesperson for Harvard Law told us in a statement, in part, quote, "When the Supreme Court ruled last year, it was understood that the decision would impact, in ways that could not be fully anticipated, the ability of educational institutions across the nation, including law schools, to attract and admit a diverse cohort of students." But Harvard notes, "The conclusion that can be drawn from one year of data aren't necessarily -- or are necessarily limited," I should say.

Let's talk about this now with Sean Wynn. He's the president of the Harvard Black Law Student Association.

Sean, good morning to you.

SEAN WYNN, HARVARD BLACK LAW STUDENTS ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT: Good morning.

BLACKWELL: What we hear from Jeff there, it seems as if he's suggesting that you cannot draw a straight line. Do you believe there is a causal relationship between the affirmative action decision and these numbers?

SEAN WYNN, HARVARD BLACK LAW STUDENTS ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT: That's a -- that's a great question. I think yes and -- yes and no. I think it is -- you -- you are, you know, it's somewhat intellectually dishonest to sort of see, you know, a 50 percent drop the first year after a Supreme Court ruling and not think that there is, you know, some -- I -- I think some -- some causation as well as correlation.

But I -- I do, you know, believe that, you know, Harvard Law is correct in stating that, you know, we cannot draw all of the conclusions necessarily from this one year and, you know, all of the work that we're doing on campus, you know, this year since -- since September, when we realized that this was a story.

I think the most important thing that we've really been wanting to harp on the past week with all of this increased press attention, is that we have known the amount of black students that have been on this campus for four months. And it is only now becoming a, you know, becoming a story because it is sort of like, you know, the -- the dirty laundry is now on view for the rest of the world to see.

BLACKWELL: Nineteen black students in the class of 2027, six of them male. You wrote in a statement that the demographic shift places significant pressure on those few black students to represent the black community in all its variety and complexity during conversations about the law. Expound that, if you would.

WYNN: Yes, absolutely. It's something, you know, sort of called, you know, spokesperson syndrome. You know, black students, they feel oftentimes, you know, feel increased pressure to speak on behalf of all black individuals, you know, during the classroom discussion, you know, campus events, any sort of, you know, diversity initiatives and, you know, the expectation to represent the entire community can -- it can really detract from the academic -- from the academic experience.

And in addition to that, you know, there's the increased isolation that comes from not, you know, being on a campus that has so few people, you know, that look like you. And then, you know, on top of all of that is like, all of our first year law students are getting incredibly active in changing things. And I think there's been the added stress from the advocacy of, you know, changing the law school demographics.

BLACKWELL: And so what should admissions at Harvard Law do, if anything, from your perspective?

WYNN: Sure, I want to -- I think it's -- it's more than -- it's definitely more than admissions. I think it is the -- the institution. It's Harvard Law School. And Harvard as a, you know, as a whole, the president and fellows. The admissions office candidly has been one of our biggest partners in trying to tackle this, try and trying to tackle this. But I -- I do think that there's more that the admissions office and the entire school can do.

I think that, you know, there are, you know, the Supreme Court sort of, you know, SFA (ph) did allow for, you know, certain aspects of the identity to still be, you know, accounted for. I think, you know, the -- assuming that there is this colorblind framework that we automatically went into when, you know, that ruling passed --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

WYNN: -- I just -- I -- I -- it is false and I don't think it's a -- it's not realistic. So I think figuring out ways that we can, you know, account for more aspects of the identity to ensure that there are still diverse perspectives on this.

BLACKWELL: All right. Sean Wynn, president of the Harvard Black Law Students Association, thanks so much for your time and perspective this morning.

WYNN: Thank you, Victor.

[08:33:40]

BLACKWELL: All right, coming up, why Asian American groups are coming together to demand an apology from a radio host and action from the national network of stations he works for.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Asian American groups are calling out a morning radio show host they say is spreading anti-Asian rhetoric. The Asian American Journalists association and other adequacy groups want to see host Bill Handel suspended and apologize for comments made on several episodes of his syndicated show this year. Now we're going to play just one of the clips they're citing to give you a sense of the kind of comments they're concerned by.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HANDEL, KFI-AM 640, IHEARTRADIO HOST: As a paean to former President Trump and in his honor and J.D. Vance, I'm putting up on Instagram at Bill Handel Show recipe for dog meat soup, this is legitimate, by the way. OK, dog meat soup and fiery Szechuan cat stir fry with full instructions on how to cook cats and dogs. Now what's kind of weird is Korean and Chinese. I'm trying for the life of me to look at a Haitian recipe for dogs and cats and I cannot find one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: You know, in stories like this you kind of weigh whether it gives oxygen to comments people otherwise would not hear. But this is not some fringe voice. According to his bio, Handel was just recently honored as the 2024 Broadcast Legend of the Year by the Radio and Television News Association of Southern California. In 2009, he got a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. This is a famous man with a long, award winning career.

[08:40:10]

The Asian American Journalist association notes his station, KFI-AM 640 is broadcast across Los Angeles and Orange Counties which has a 17 percent Asian American and Pacific Islander population. He's had to apologize for similar comments back in the 90s. We reached out via e- mail Friday to iHeartRadio, Handel Station in L.A. and Handel for a statement, but we did not hear back.

Guy Aoki is with us. He's a co-founder of the Media Action Network for Asian Americans, which brought attention to these clips. Guy, good morning to you. And you go beyond saying that these are just offensive, but that they're dangerous. Why?

GUY AOKI, CO-FOUNDER, MEDIA ACTION NETWORK FOR ASIAN AMERICANS: Yes, you know when he keeps asserting that Korean Americans eat dog, which is man's best friend, you create a lot of anger from people. And when you say Chinese people serve cats, you know, the ironic thing about that clip you showed is that he was trying to make fun of this notion that Haitians eat dogs and cats. But then he goes and says that Koreans and Chinese do, which is like, what are you doing? You know, I mean, we've seen the fallout from COVID where people blame Chinese people for that and they just push them from behind. They don't even talk to them.

And so when you do that, you're creating more anger against Asian Americans and people don't distinguish between Chinese or Japanese or Korean. So anybody who looks Chinese enough or Korean enough can be an open target for people because of comments like this. And he knows better because he -- he knows this. He knows that it's not true that Korean Americans eat dog in this country.

BLACKWELL: In the 90s, when Kristi Yamaguchi and Michelle Kwan were winning medals at the Olympics, he said this. When I look at a box of Wheaties, I don't want to see eyes that are like all slanted and oriental and almond shaped. I want American eyes looking at me. He apologized for that. So far, no apology, as I said, no response from KFI, no response from iHeartRadio. What do you make of the -- the refusal to respond to even the calls for some acknowledgment apology for what he's saying?

AOKI: Well, you know, were the group that forced that apology out of him in 1996. I had a meeting with Bill Handel and we were yelling at each other. And I said, Bill, I'm going to give you 48 hours. You make up your mind if you're going to apologize, because if you don't, at 12:01 p.m. we're going to start going after your advertisers. And that's why he gave the first apology of his career at 9:40 a.m. that Friday. And so, you know, KFI is not taking us seriously, iHeart is not taking us seriously. So we will speak their language, which is money.

We're calling for advertisers to drop support from Bill Handel. That includes the Sleep, Number Beds, Zelmin's minty mouth, Life Source Water Filtration Systems. Prove that you do not condone his actions and stand with the Asian American community because enough is enough. This guy knows better. He's even admitted on air that Korean Americans do not eat dog. And yet he perpetuates this notion. It's like he can't help himself.

Anytime the conversation is about something about Koreans and dogs, he'll put the two together and say, eat dogs. You know, and his psychic.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

AOKI: -- to his -- his credit. He got mad at Bill Handle, said, what is wrong with you? You know that's not true. I mean, he was going after Bill Handel, his own us, you know, his own sidekick. And so we thank Neil for that.

BLACKWELL: And someone who has, as I listed off the awards, has been honored by the industry even after these comments that he's made. Guy Aoki, we've got to wrap it there for time. But thank you so much and we'll continue to follow this story. Thank you, Guy.

AOKI: Thank you.

[08:44:10] BLACKWELL: All right. Tis' the season to listen to Christmas music. And there is something I noticed about the list of top holiday songs that I want to talk about. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

BLACKWELL: "Silent Night" by The Temptations. I tell you, when I hear that song, that's Christmas time for real, OK? And there's songs also like this that are new, at least to me.

(MUSIC)

BLACKWELL: You know, I noticed something when looking at the list of the top Christmas songs that historically considered holiday classics, and I want to talk about it with music industry veteran journalist and professor, Naima Cochrane. Naima, good morning to you. And first, let's just talk about Black Christmas music because I mean, The Temptation, "Silent Night," I don't know who sang the definitive version before them. But this for me is now it, what is it about -- about Black Christmas music that kind of makes it a subgenre of its own?

[08:49:58]

NAIMA COCHRANE, MUSIC INDUSTRY VETERAN, JOURNALIST: First of all, good morning. Thank you for having me. I think the same thing -- the thing about Black Christmas music is the same thing about Black music, period. There is just -- there's a feeling, there's a soul. It is baked in nostalgia, sonic nostalgia. It instantly transports us back, as I -- as I guess Christmas music and holiday music does for everyone to family, people long gone, childhood memories.

But our Christmas music is just so soulful, right? Or even if it's not soulful, it -- it might be funky or it might be very hip, but it -- it's just the same elements that make Black music itself very distinctive.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

COCHRANE: Like, some can be descriptive, some things you can name sonically, but some of it is just about feel.

BLACKWELL: And, you know, let's talk Whitney Houston because she has a lot of fans who love her for "I Will Always Love You" and "I Want to Dance With Somebody." But if you want to really hear Whitney go off, it's "Joy to the World" with the Georgia Mass Choir. Let's play a little bit of it. Let's play a little bit.

COCHRANE: Yes.

(MUSIC)

BLACKWELL: I mean, that is a different part of Whitney that we didn't get on -- on those pop albums. And so as we talk about Black Christmas music, you know, Billboard has their Hot 100. They also have the Holiday 100 that shows the top streaming and selling albums, Temptations not, and none of their songs on the Top 100. There's no Whitney, there's no Supremes, there's no Aretha, Ray Charles, Lou Rawls. Stevie Wonder and his great Christmas music doesn't make the top 50. And these are all crossover artists. They had huge pop outside of holiday music. Why are they not resonating when it comes to holiday music?

COCHRANE: I think that when it comes to -- to Black Christmas music, there might be a feeling for those outside of our community of a little bit of putting too much on it, because we do put too much on it because we're supposed to. But it is surprising, you know, Stevie, especially like Stevie's Christmas album, actually, Motown's Christmas albums across the board, like that is like foundational, classic Black Christmas music. They are like amazingly arranged and sung and orchestrated, but, you know, it's not binged. You know what I mean?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

COCHRANE: It's not --

BLACKWELL: It ain't BURL Live.

COCHRANE: Exactly.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

COCHRANE: Like, it -- it's not. It's not super. I'm not going to say it's not polished, but it's not shiny.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

COCHRANE: You know, it is like, you know, it just brings a little something else to it. And -- and I guess it doesn't necessarily evoke feelings of, you know, snow covered embankments. Instead, you're thinking about family and friends --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

COCHRANE: -- you know, gathered, yes.

BLACKWELL: Which is interesting, so much of the imagery of -- of Christmas music is this Victorian era of, you know, buttons made of coal and the horse knows the way to carry the sleigh. There is a new generation of people trying new stuff with music. Here's GloRilla and Kehlani.

(MUSIC)

BLACKWELL: With the -- the new generation, can these be the new classics?

COCHRANE: I think some of them will transcend. There -- there have always been some hip hop and current RnB takes on music, like there is actually a song from "Quad City DJ's" from the 90s like --

BLACKWELL: Love it.

COCHRANE: -- about getting crunk for Christmas. To me, that's a classic, right. So I think that there will always be some that transcend. They might not get played in cross generational homes the way Whitney's "Joy to the World" with the Georgia Mass Choir does.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

COCHRANE: But, you know, some of them make the cut. And -- and again, it's a nostalgia factor, right?

BLACKWELL: That's true.

COCHRANE: They mark a place in time. Yes.

[08:54:17]

BLACKWELL: Yes. I mean, so "Quad City DJs," "Christmas and Hollis," "8 Days of Christmas" from Destiny's Child, classics to me also not on that -- that chart of the top 100. Naima Cochrane, thank you so much. Happy Christmas to you. We'll take a break. We'll be right back.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Today is the first day of winter, and if you're somewhere with snow, maybe it's a chance to take a break and get on a snowboard. While the Hoods to Woods Foundation gives kids who might not otherwise have a chance to try it ever exposure to the sport. I spoke to the group's founders, and their objective is to take kids from never being on a snowboard to being proficient riders.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN PAUPAW, CO-FOUNDER, HOODS TO WOODS FOUNDATION: We had a lot of moments when we just watch the kids learning, see the progression, seeing kids take to snowboarding. We just look at each other and just, like, smile. Like, wow, you know, this is real. This is -- this is happening. So for me, it's like the biggest paycheck in the world to see more than a kid smile.

OMAR DIAZ, CO-FOUNDER, HOODS TO WOODS FOUNDATION: Whenever I see a kid that now is a young adult, and they're FaceTiming me from somewhere on the other side of the country saying, hey, look, I'm out here because of you guys. Thank you. That -- that's -- that's the thing, right? That these people have now taken a different path, menu friends have done different life choices because of the opportunities that they were given.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:00:09]

BLACKWELL: They started with four students in their neighborhood in Brooklyn, and now hundreds have been through their program. To check them out, visit hoodstowoodsfoundation.org. Brian Paupaw, Omar Diaz and all the kids at Hoods to Woods Foundation, I see you.

And thank you for joining me today. Tune in for a special New Year edition of the show next Saturday at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Smerconish starts right now.