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Inside Politics

Azerbaijan Airlines Says Plane Crashed Because Of "Physical And Technical External Interference"; Trump, Putin Express Willingness To Meet To Talk About Ukraine; Usha Vance Prepares For Husband's Vice Presidency; Democrats Quietly Weighing Their 2028 Options. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 27, 2024 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: -- wounded by that shrapnel as it came into the aircraft. That is the physical interference coming from some type of explosion, some type of shrapnel. The technical interference I think the Azerbaijan government is talking about is the plane reported it was being jammed.

And I think we'll see more on the black boxes when they're recovered and analyzed. And it will tell you that the pilots were probably doing some unbelievably strong piloting skills to get that plane from Grozny across the Caspian Sea into Azerbaijan.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And again, the important context here, despite what we're hearing from Russian officials, is Ukraine drones were operating in the area. This is happening in an open conflict zone, this airspace specifically, which is what leads me to my next question.

I want to step back a little bit because the Ukraine conflict is still very ongoing. It is still a hot war. There has been no sign that anybody is coming to the table. There has been a promise from the president-elect that he can reach an agreement very quickly.

I want you to listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translation): I don't know when we'll meet because he hasn't said anything about it. I haven't spoken to him at all in over four years. Of course, I'm ready for this at any time, and I will be ready for a meeting if he wants it.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Got to be a deal. Got to be a deal. Too many people being killed. That is a war. That's too many people. We've got to make a deal. And Putin has to make a deal.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

MATTINGLY: Two pieces of this. Should the president-elect meet with President Putin soon after coming into office with this as the central point of discussion? And second, what leverage does the Trump administration have as they come in in this conflict?

HERTLING: Well, first, if we can go back to what Mr. Putin said about he hasn't met with the president or hasn't spoken to him in four years, that may be true. But President Putin was also the guy that said that what took down this airplane was a bird strike. So what you have to first point out is the fact that every time Mr. Putin talks, he lies.

The second thing, in terms of the relationship between the two presidents, one of the first questions I would ask is, where are they going to meet? Because President Putin has been indicted by the International Criminal Court in The Hague of being a war criminal. And there are warrants for his arrest in countries that abide by the ICC. So that would put a little bit of an imposition on where they might meet.

Are they going to talk for sure? President Trump has already said that he's going to stop the war. And in order to do that, he's going to talk to Putin. If that occurs, I certainly hope that Ukraine is at the table, too, because there have been indicators that there is going to be a dual conversation between Trump and Putin to help solve this problem.

Certainly, Ukraine has an interest in this as well, and they should be at any negotiating table. But the last thing I'll say, Phil, is the fact that President-elect Trump has said on multiple occasions that he would like to win the Nobel Peace Prize. This would be an opportunity for him to try and do that.

So I think there's going to be a great deal of pressure on a potential peace process between Russia and Ukraine. But I got to tell you, too, in my assessment of the situation, Russia is at a very tenuous point right now. Their military is nearly destroyed.

Their economy is a shambles. They're having problems at home. And whereas Ukraine is having some of the same situations, I think, truthfully, Ukraine still has the upper hand in terms of a potential for negotiations in this whole fight. And Putin wants to get out of this war.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it'll be fascinating to watch in the initial days, weeks, potentially months as well.

General Mark Hertling, thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

HERTLING: Thanks, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Well, coming up, a closer look at the soon-to-be second lady of the United States. Who is Usha Vance and what will she do with the platform she'll soon have?

Plus, it's still 2024, but you can bet some of the people you see on your screen right here, they're already having conversations about 2028.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [12:38:03]

MATTINGLY: The incoming second lady, Usha Vance, is bringing a different energy to what it means to be a MAGA woman. She, of course, is the daughter of Indian immigrants. She met J.D. Vance at Yale Law School and went on to clerk for John Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh.

Until 2014, Usha Vance was a registered Democrat. Now she's introducing herself to America as the powerful female voice on J.D.'s left shoulder.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

USHA VANCE, INCOMING SECOND LADY: When J.D. met me, he approached our differences with curiosity and enthusiasm. He wanted to know everything about me, where I came from, what my life had been like. Although he's a meat and potatoes kind of guy, he adapted to my vegetarian diet.

Before I knew it, he had become an integral part of my family, a person I could not imagine living without. The J.D. I knew then is the same J.D. you see today, except for that beard.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining me now is Kate Andersen Brower, she's the journalist and author of "First Women", a best-selling book about America's first ladies, also a former colleague at Bloomberg. You've gone on to do much more impressive stuff than most of us who are in that newsroom.

I do want to -- I want you to take a listen to J.D. Vance describing Usha Vance's first meeting with the president-elect. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: He asks her what she thinks about me being involved in politics. And she gives, if anybody knows my wife, it's like the perfect Usha answer. It's a very diplomatic answer. And she's like, well, sir, you know, my husband really loves public service. We love the state of Ohio.

And I'm just really thrilled to be able to help him out where I can. And Trump looks at her and goes, yes, my wife hates it too.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

MATTINGLY: A very, I think, endearing story to convey from the vice president-elect there. I think the big question, though, coming in, what do we know about the role that Usha Vance has played in J.D. Vance's rise to this moment?

KATE ANDERSEN BROWER, AUTHOR, "FIRST WOMEN": Well, we know that they're really partners in everything they do. And I think you see this a lot with political couples. But, you know, she helped write his convention speech and she said he didn't write hers. So there's something to that.

[12:40:08]

And when you see her speaking, she often says we, you know, she is, as you point out, a Yale law graduate. She went to Cambridge, worked at a very prestigious liberal law firm. She's someone with her own voice and her own ideas. And I think that she's going to be a powerful force in this White House.

MATTINGLY: What is the role of a second lady in the White House? What do we expect from her based on all the research and people you've spoken to about that?

BROWER: Yes, I mean, it's a very amorphous role, right? It's just like in similar to the first lady. It's whatever they want to make it. But, I mean, you can look at somebody like Karen Pence, who was operating behind the scenes. Somebody -- Jill Biden was somebody who was working very closely with Michelle Obama when she was second lady. So it'll be interesting to see.

Usha Vance is very shy, very soft spoken. She's been called a bookworm by her friends. So I don't know how much we're going to see of her.

It's interesting because Melania is also an enigma. We don't see her very much. So who is going to fill in and take that role of first lady? It might be Usha Vance. I have a feeling it'll be someone else in the Trump orbit dynasty, like a Lara Trump if she doesn't become senator or somebody else kind of hanging around in the Trump family.

Usha doesn't seem like someone who loves the spotlight.

MATTINGLY: Yes, which made this moment in the campaign really interesting. It was when I think probably with the lowest moment for Vance after he was named that the cat women --

BROWER: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- sound was unveiled. And the campaign sent Usha Vance out to defend her husband. She said this.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

U. VANCE: The reality is, he made a quip in service of making a point that he wanted to make that was substantive and it had actual meaning. And I just wish sometimes that people would talk about those things and that we would spend a lot less time just sort of going through this three word phrase.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

MATTINGLY: What I found most interesting about that moment, the campaign was quite happy with how that transpired, but also to the point you made, you know, I'm from Ohio when he ran for Senate, I talked to Senate Ohio Republicans around that campaign, said she didn't really want -- didn't seem like she wanted to be out there doing anything, but that was effective. How does that play into what we're going to see inside (ph)?

BROWER: I mean, I think she's very effective at humanizing him saying, you know, never doubt his intentions, right? Like I am beside him. He might not always say things in the way that I would have him say them, but she's saying, you know.

He wasn't talking about cat ladies. If you listen to the whole sound bite, he's talking about how hard it is for parents with children, but it was a very insensitive comment. And she was able to kind of calibrate it, tone it down a little bit. And I think she's very important as the first Indian woman in this role.

I think it's important for people to see a Hindu in this role. I think she helps make the Republican Party more diverse. And I think that's another key point of just having her there helps. You can't see what you can't be.

You know, if you don't see somebody in that position, it's difficult. And so I think that's an important thing to see.

MATTINGLY: Also important, a mom of young children, a very professionally accomplished, amazing resume mom of three young kids. We've got young kids.

BROWER: Yes.

MATTINGLY: I struggle most days just in general. How does that play into -- what do we think we're going to see there?

BROWER: I think she's very protective of her children, obviously. And, you know, they'll live in the Naval Observatory. They're going to be kind of cloistered. It's a house that is much less well known than the White House.

When I talked to Barbara Bush about life as second lady, she said it was so much in many ways better than being first lady. You can go out on your backyard and nobody is going to be there watching you.

And as you know, in the White House, you're in this bubble and it's a fishbowl and you can't really escape. And so this idea that being second lady is a great introduction into this world. It's not going to be as brutal as being first lady.

MATTINGLY: We -- it will certainly be something to watch. Kate Andersen Brower, thanks so much for your time.

BROWER: Thanks, Phil.

MATTINGLY: I appreciate it.

Inside Politics, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:48:31] MATTINGLY: Buckle up. Donald Trump hasn't even taken the oath of office yet, but there's a few Democrats behind the scenes who are already talking about who would be their strongest candidate in 2028. Now, primary could be just as crowded as 2020 when more than 20 Democrats jumped into the race.

So who's already making moves right now? Enjoyed Christmas, too, guys.

David Chalian is back, along with Democratic strategist Karen Finney, who knows a thing or two about Democratic primaries over the course of her career. To start --

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- I am self-aware. It is too early to be having this conversation --

FINNEY: Thank you, Phil.

MATTINGLY: -- in general. And there's a lot that's going to -- everything's going to change in the next --

FINNEY: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- six months, let alone the next four years. This is not a prediction conversation. But it is true when you pull up, say, you know, a list of people that mention -- that are mentioned as the future or potential nominees. It's a huge list. Like that's -- and that's probably only half of them.

FINNEY: Yes.

MATTINGLY: There's a deep bench.

FINNEY: There's a lot of younger talent, generational talent inside the Democratic Party, Karen Finney. And my biggest question is, what should they be doing right now? I think a lot of Democrats are trying to figure out how do you position yourself in this Trump era?

FINNEY: You know, I think one of the most important things, and this is generally true for candidates, particularly because we live in such an intense disinformation environment, is to solidify your brand. Who are you? What do you stand for? What are your values? What are your core issues?

I look at someone. She's not on anybody's list. I apologize to her team because I didn't ask them. But like Maura Healey, who is governor of Massachusetts, she was a very popular AG in the state. She is a popular governor. And she's been establishing herself as kind of a no- nonsense, common-sense person.

[12:50:07]

She's very methodical. She's been able to do some important things around climate, pay family medical leave, as well as sort of public safety and security. I think it's key -- those are going to be key issues because they're always key issues in our elections. So I think --

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Also a talented basketball player.

FINNEY: Yes, I mean, come on, right? And so, I think really burnishing your credentials, particularly for women, in particular, the economy and national security are the two issues where women really have a disadvantage over men. So I'm hoping a lot of women run in 2028.

I think it's good for the country. I think we should -- instead of saying if, we should be saying when are we going to be ready for a woman. And I hope 2028 is the year.

MATTINGLY: I want to dig a little deeper to that -- into that in a second. David, one of the things that's been interesting watching those who are kind of public-facing, more public-facing it. Maura Healey very focused on the state is not a big -- not -- doesn't try to be a big national figure. I'm sure Tim loves it. You just flirted (ph) her name.

You see how people are -- this is a different time than 2017. Democrats are trying to figure out like, all right, what is the opposition look like? Do we work with the president-elect? How does our state operate if immigration and deportation comes in? What's your sense right now of where that's going to land for the party?

CHALIAN: Well, I think so much of the way that the next presidential field for Democrats will form will be dependent upon how the battles between Democrats and Trump take shape in these first six months, year of this administration. I mean, I think back to 2004, which is where a lot of Democrats say, when I talked to them, they feel they are right now, right?

And that was right after George W. Bush's re-election, again, after not winning the popular vote, but then winning the popular vote with a bigger win in 2004. And Democrats galvanized around this battle against privatizing Social Security.

And that was the beginning of the formation -- Karen can give you this history better than I can -- of what led to this successful 2006 midterms for Democrats to win the House and the Senate, which fed directly into the 2008 campaign.

Obviously, history doesn't always repeat itself exactly. But I do think how the initial legislative policy battles are framed and who wins them is going to help define how the party organizes itself going forward. I will say this, though, Phil, I think we get caught a lot in labeling the intra-democratic battle between progressives and centrists.

I don't think that's what this is. And I think the smartest post- election analysis have said, whoever's going to grab the mantle to be authentically back to fighting for working-class Americans and sort of anti-elite establishment, who can define themselves, to your point about brand, the Democrat that's able to step forward and do that most successfully is one that is going to go far. FINNEY: I love the analogy to 2004, because obviously I was at the DNC in 2005 when we were struggling with these questions. And I think that authenticity and the fact that I think there was a little bit of buyer's remorse with George W. Bush once the Social Security battle happened.

People said, wait a second, that's not what we thought we voted for. And I could see that repeating itself, frankly. I think the other piece, though, on this brand question and authenticity, I mean, look, all of the people you mentioned have -- they are stellar potential candidates.

They are all sort of, I think, staking out sort of different parts of the landscape for themselves about why they're a champion for the people. And the other thing I think will be important in 2028 is, remember, the percentage of younger voters in the electorate will be higher. So what does that do to what the issue landscape is going to look like?

And the percentage of, you know, we've been seeing women candidates gaining increasing numbers of voters, right? 65 million for Hillary, 75 million for Kamala. Americans are getting more used to voting for women. So I think it'll be a good year for women candidates as well.

MATTINGLY: Two things, your point about the policy, 2017 and the 2018 midterms, people look at it as, you know, resistance. No, it was the fight over Obamacare and it was the fight over the tax bill, which they lost on the tax bill.

But the galvanization of Democrats and that you look at the frontliners who won in 18 were not progressive resistance types. Like they were -- Abigail Spanberger, who's going to be running for governor soon. That whole class, some of them are senators.

Now, I do want to ask you, though, on the issue of women, there's a New York Times story that said some Democrats already quietly hoping their party doesn't nominate a woman in 2028, fearing she could not overcome an enduring hold of sexism on the American electorate.

FINNEY: So I think that's the wrong lesson to draw from 2024 or 2016. I think if Kamala had more time, we could have dealt with the race and gender issues. Clearly, those are going to be issues. But also remember, when we talk about working class, the percentage of Americans who are black and brown working class is also increasing.

[12:55:01]

So if you think about the voter pool and you think about who is going to be hopefully voting in 2028, I think it's -- there -- it's a good landscape for a woman. And again, if you have the time -- and think about with Barack Obama, he had a year ahead of time to lay out.

He knew he could not win in the electorate as it was, that they needed to change the electorate in order for him to get elected, which is what they did throughout 2008 -- 2007, 2008. That's the kind of strategy I think the first woman is going to need. And hey, maybe a woman on the Republican side will take on J.D. Vance and we'll have two women running in a general election. That would be fantastic. I look forward to that day.

MATTINGLY: With 10 seconds left, do you think that happens?

CHALIAN: I don't know that that might happen. It's not impossible.

MATTINGLY: I know it can.

FINNEY: Just say it.

CHALIAN: But I like the idea of a competitive primary on both sides next time around because that's good for those of us that cover politics.

MATTINGLY: It certainly makes for a more interesting story, guys. Thanks so much. Happy holidays. Happy New Year ahead.

CHALIAN: Happy holidays.

MATTINGLY: And thank you for joining Inside Politics. Be sure to tune into the State of the Union at 9:00 a.m. on Sunday. Dana will be interviewing Democratic Senator Andy Kim and Republican Governor Chris Sununu.

CNN New Central starts after the break.