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Isa Soares Tonight

Ukraine Says It Is Not Expecting American F-16 Fighter Jet Deliveries This Year; CNN Finds Evidence Of Massacre In Darfur; Concerns Grow For The Safety Of The Jurors Who Voted To Indict Donald Trump In Georgia; Giuliani Asks Trump For Monetary Help; Georgia Grand Jury Personal Information Made Public; Going Green: Loowatt; Quest In The Land Of Eternal Blue Sky. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired August 17, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Hello, and a very warm welcome to the show everyone, I`m Christina Macfarlane in for Isa Soares.

Tonight, Ukraine says it is not expecting American-made F-16 fighter jets this year. We`ll look at why there are such a delay. Then we have evidence

of a gruesome massacre that unfolded in west Darfur.

We`ll have an exclusive CNN investigation. Plus, concerns for the safety of the jurors who voted to indict Donald Trump in Georgia, as it appears

information about their lives has leaked online. More on that.

But first, Ukraine says its skies will now be more protected, thanks to a new air defense systems supplied by Germany. But it will have to wait

months longer to receive much anticipated U.S.-made fighter jets. Ukrainian Air Force spokesperson says the delivery of F-16s is not expected to happen

this year.

Ukraine has repeatedly made urgent appeals for the jets from the U.S. and other allies, saying they would be a game-changer by protecting against

Russian missile and drone attacks. Ukraine is also calling for tougher sanctions against Russia, saying it should not be able to buy foreign parts

to manufacture attack helicopters and other weapons.

It says two Russian helicopters shot down in Ukraine today had high tech components from western and Asian countries. Well, let`s bring in our Nick

Paton Walsh for more, he`s live for us tonight in Dnipro. And Nick, on those jets, I mean, in May, President Biden said that he would allow

Ukrainian pilots to be trained up on F-16s. So what accounts for the day in these fighter jets being delivered in time for Winter?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, essentially, the West, NATO, have decided that Ukraine should have F-16s, and the training

and the supply of them has been something that`s been sort of TBD with European allies, saying the training would occur on their territory.

But the supply was something that was supposed to have occurred, I think really this year have been the messaging from the White House. That is now

not going to occur according to Ukrainian officials. It`s hugely significant, frankly, because the urgency of what Ukraine needs here is

audible every few hours here in Dnipro with the air raid sirens we hear.

And F-16s would be less helpful in taking down the ballistic missiles that often crash into major population census like this, it`s more useful in the

counteroffensive. And that has an impact too in Russia`s ability to project its missiles into civilian areas like this. They need F-16s to take on the

Russian air power that gives them superiority on the frontlines in the south.

That means that Ukrainian troops can be hit at will by half-metric ton bombs dropped by the Russians. We see that all the time when we`re on the

frontlines with Ukrainian troops. It`s the ultimate risk that they endure, and it`s throwing their progress forward. So the F-16 project was always

going to be complex, it had multiple allies, it always involved technology that would often require NATO to be very present at times, metaphorically,

in terms of the technical logical know-how, the servicing that these jets needed to function.

And all that would have to happen in Ukraine without NATO somehow being dragged in by allowing these jets to fly into their territory and be

serviced there. So, it was always tough. But they do appear, according to Ukrainian officials, they may be trying to apply pressure by saying this,

they do appear to be not happening fast enough this year, Christina.

MACFARLANE: And Nick, speaking of the frontlines, I know you have had a firsthand look at one of the marginal games made by Ukraine in recent days.

Tell us what you saw.

WALSH: Yes, it`s difficult to talk about the significance of these places, because they`re incredibly small. They`re small villages where Russia has

invested possibly hundreds of casualties, Ukraine as well, we`ve seen it happen all along the southeastern part of the frontline. Urozhaine is the

success that Ukraine touted yesterday, were on the outskirts of it yesterday that announcement was made.

It`s still being hit heavily by Russian artillery. But it`s what Ukraine says is part of their small victories here that counter the narrative from

western analysts that they`re not really moving fast enough. They say they are, it`s hard work and it`s hard work because the Russians are prepared,

and this kind of warfare is difficult by definition. Here`s what we saw.

[14:05:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (voice-over): There may be ruins around them, but their direction is forwards. We`re with the 35th Ukrainian Marines, the first reporters to get

to the outskirts of Urozhaine, yet another village announced liberated Wednesday. The victories may be small, but they`re constant.

(on camera): So just down here, Urozhaine, yet another town taken as the counteroffensive does move forward. We were just seeing the neighboring

village taken last week, but they keep moving.

(ARTILLERY FIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

WALSH: That much incoming, we`re getting out of here as quick as we can, while they control Urozhaine here, the Russians do everything they can to

make it a nightmare for the Ukrainians to be there.

(voice-over): The unit showed us the intense fight captured by drone. This, their tank advancing, dropping a string of anti-mind explosives

behind it they said, which then, once it turned, detonated. The unit released a video of them in the town Wednesday, of how they turned their

firepower on what was once a Russian stronghold that shell them. The company commander recalls many more Russians hidden there than he expected.

"Very many died", he says, "especially when they started to run. And when they held houses, lots of them died there." But they were caught as they

fled. The smoke around Russians likely made by cluster munitions, Ukraine has said it is already using some rounds controversially supplied by the

United States. We cannot confirm if these fired here where the new American cluster bombs, but the losses suffered where clear, and they say their use

is less of an ethical dilemma when you`re in this brutal fight.

"I don`t understand it", he says. That site is using whatever they want, are people dying from all this and it`s OK, when the other side dies, it`s

not? I don`t understand."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

WALSH: His footage shows how young some in the assault were. He has no time for western analysts who say they should be moving faster. "I would

say, they can always come to me as a guest and fight with me", he says. "If someone believes that you can fly over the minefield on a broom like in

Harry Potter, it doesn`t happen a real fight. If you don`t understand that, you can sit in your armchair and eat your popcorn."

(on camera): Yes, I smell it.

(voice-over): Out here, the last month of advances feel both empty and grueling, littered now with Russian dead. They haven`t moved perhaps as far

as it is felt.

(on camera): These just empty farm fields in which many have died to take each kilometer.

(voice-over): The Russians mined so hard here, they use this machine to do it. So much damage done, it`s hard to imagine what plans Moscow had for

here at all had they kept it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH: Now Christina, the importance of Urozhaine is sort of weirdly incremental, but important to explain. About two weeks ago, the Ukrainians

took the village across the river, Staromaiorske that can really hold their positions there, because the Russians in Urozhaine shelling them intensely

now, they`ve pushed down the eastern side of the river that separates those two and clear Urozhaine out.

Yes, they`re still being heavily shelled there too, but these are important strategic gains. You saw how wide the spaces are there. But when people say

Ukraine isn`t moving forward fast enough, that`s certainly true in the mind of Ukrainians, but they point to victories like this deeply hardly fought

and better, to say, well, we`re still moving forward. Christina?

MACFARLANE: Yes, and this is so -- such important context, Nick, to help us understand what moving forward actually means right now. While, we have

you, Nick, I just want to ask you about something we`ve seen in the last hour. Some comments from the president of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko

saying that his country will never get involved in the Ukraine war, except if Belarus is attacked or infiltrated.

Now, it`s according to a state news outlet that he`s given these remarks. And Nick, given the tensions at Belarus` border right now over the presence

of Wagner mercenaries in Belarus, what do you make of those remarks?

WALSH: Yes, I mean, to be honest, it`s -- people would not read too much into what Alexander Lukashenko says. His country was used as a platform to

invade Ukraine last year, so they kind of have been involved. So, that`s out the window.

[14:10:00]

Are they going to get more involved? Probably not. The presence of Wagner mercenaries there is very confusing because we don`t quite know who`s

paying for them being there, certainly NATO neighbors of Belarus are concerned, seen Wagner there, but we haven`t really seen that materialize

into actual things that could trigger NATO`s defense mechanisms, but still NATO are deeply concerned about that.

Lukashenko was certainly involved in stopping the Prigozhin coup back a few months ago now, breaking the deal which essentially made Prigozhin

turnaround on his way to Moscow. So, when he also in those comments said that Putin wasn`t weakened by that entire incident, that sort of

nonsensical too. So we`re looking at a man really, Lukashenko, who is weakened by the last three-four years of internal unrest.

Being dragged into Putin`s war, then somehow being dragged into stopping the coup in Moscow, all these things are remarkable, just to list, because

Lukashenko is somebody that Putin often treated with contempt, but now appears to avail himself, no -- possibly gorged as a power broker to some

degree. So it`s interesting to continually hear his commentary on this, but important to always remember this is a man who enjoys minimal domestic

support, who has minimal military might at all.

Doesn`t have his own independent nuclear force, that he`s sort of hinted about deploying to do. And somebody who for -- about two months ago, was

the guy who saved Putin one complicated weekend. Christina?

MACFARLANE: Again, important context. Our Nick Paton Walsh live there from Dnipro, we appreciate your reporting. Thank you. Now, turning now to Sudan,

and what`s being called one of the worst days in Darfur`s genocide-scarred history. Witnesses spoke to CNN about a gruesome massacre that unfolded in

west Darfur two months ago. But we must warn you, some of the images you`re about to see are graphic, and the report includes distressing descriptions

of conflict. Our Nima Elbagir has this exclusive report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The streets of El Geneina in Sudan`s Darfur region are eerily quiet. Filmed

at great risk by survivors, the video shows racist graffiti defacing walls and corpses littering the streets. Seen here in their own propaganda,

Sudan`s paramilitary Rapid Support Forces, RSF, occupied Geneina in June after a heavy shelling campaign and fighting in their war for dominance

over Sudan`s army.

A CNN investigation has now uncovered some of the cost of the RSF victory here in Geneina.

(SCREAMING)

(GUNFIRE)

Survivors, aid workers and body collectors described to CNN how together with their allies, the RSF gunned down hundreds of civilians in and around

Geneina on June 15th. In one of the most violent massacres to date in the recent history of this genocide-scarred Sudanese region.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(SHOUTING)

ELBAGIR: Using satellite images, eye witness testimony and geolocating what few videos have made it through the telecommunications blackout,

cutting Darfur off from the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I lost eight members of my family that day during the escape from El Geneina to Chad.

ELBAGIR: This man says he buried hundreds of victims in Darfur since April. But on that day, he couldn`t even reach his slain relatives. The

RSF`s troops are drawn from Darfur Arab tribes, and together with its leader, Mohamed Hamdan Dagalo, aka Hemedti are implicated in the years-long

genocide in the region against African tribal groupings.

(GUNFIRE)

It`s unsurprising then that the war between the RSF and Sudan`s military for control of the country took an even more sinister turn here in Darfur,

mirroring the RSF`s previous tactics, forcing civilians to flee, many arriving in Geneina.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

ELBAGIR: That is until June 14th when the west Darfur governor seen here at his arrest by the RSF was executed. The RSF blamed for the killing

denies responsibility. As hundreds attempted to flee, they were harassed and threatened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

ELBAGIR: Even children joined in. A lucky few made it to Chad.

SABRY MOHAMED, FORMER EL GENEINA RESIDENT & EYEWITNESS (through translator): They were going into houses killing people. Snipers were

everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

ELBAGIR: Bringing with them stories of ethnic targeting.

MOHAMED: On the road out of the city, we were stopped and searched. They took our phones, men were separated from the women so they could kill us.

We ran, but they shot some of us.

ELBAGIR: Evidence shows much of the killing occurred here outside the main hospital in Geneina. Then fleeing civilians were ambushed again in

Madikaja(ph). Satellite images show the river which is usually shallow and Africans to cross, had water running high that day.

[14:15:00]

Scores struggled in the water, some shot as they drowned. Survivors say they heard gunfire from all directions.

JAMAL KHAMISS, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER & EYEWITNESS (through translator): I saw 17 kids who were shot dead, then thrown into the water. This was one of

the most surreal scenes I`ve witnessed.

ELBAGIR: Even as they fled Geneina for Adre across the border in Chad, our evidence shows men, women and children were shot as they fled. At the MSF

Hospital in Chad, survivors arrived with gunshot wounds in the back, legs and buttocks, the lead doctor told CNN. All injuries consistent with being

shot from the back.

Over 850 people flooded the hospital in Adre between June 15th to 17th, according to MSF, more than any other period since fighting began in April.

Body collectors say, according to their counts, around 1,000 people were killed on the day of June 15th, buried in dozens of mass graves. Survivors

say the RSF is replicating these same tactics across the region.

Even as their supporters celebrate in the aftermath of mass killings and a sweep of escalating ethnically-targeted attacks.

(on camera): A spokesperson for the Rapid Support Forces told CNN that they categorically denied the assertions that we put forward in our

reporting without though denying any of the specifics that we shared with them. It`s also important to note that the RSF had previously denied the

findings of an investigation where we uncovered evidence that RSF troops had engaged in rapes.

Before subsequently, the leader of the RSF stating that those who had been implicated in violation were to be prosecuted. Nima Elbagir, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Well, my next guest is a former ambassador of Sudan to the United States, and a retired senior U.N. official, Nureldin Satti joins me

live. Ambassador, thank you for your time. As we were just hearing there in Nima`s report and what was outlined, it appears we are seeing the horror of

ethnic and racially-targeted killing, rape, violence happening in Darfur with the RSF pretty much replicating the same tactics they did 20 years

ago, but this time with more speed. Ambassador, we`re witnessing genocide once again in Darfur?

NURELDIN SATTI, FORMER SUDANESE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Well, it seems clear, that`s what`s happening again, once again, and as you rightly

said, this has been going on for 20 years. And this is the result of lack of accountability. Those people have been there for many years, they

started under the previous regime or bear the responsibility for creating them, arming them and throwing them against the people in Darfur, and then

bringing them in to Khartoum.

And this is the result, that`s what we`re seeing now. So, unfortunately, this is a very sad reality that we are living today in Sudan, particularly

in Darfur. But we need to do something about it.

MACFARLANE: Yes, absolutely, and as the former Sudan ambassador to several countries, we know that you are a skilled negotiator and we`ve watched

this, the international community have so far overwhelmingly focused their efforts on brokering peace, and has repeatedly failed to have a

breakthrough.

So at this juncture, with this emergency situation that is now at hand, what other prospects are there for the international community to intervene

to protect civilians as this situation is just spiraling out of control?

SATTI: Well, I think the international community and U.N. community have to bear their responsibilities. They cannot allow such things to continue

happening in Sudan. Protection of civilians is essential, is necessary, it has been part of course of the ongoing negotiations or negotiation that

have been ongoing in Jeddah.

And we think that we need more active involvement from the regional and international community, in terms of humanitarian assistance, in terms of

protection of civilians, and in terms of closer ceasefire talks. Unfortunately --

MACFARLANE: But how do you do that, ambassador? Can I ask how you do that? Because it has been tried, we know it`s very difficult to get into Darfur.

What method should they be using right now to put people on the ground, to intervene?

SATTI: Well, I don`t think, unfortunately, I think that the issue of boots on the ground now an option that has been put on the table. But the real

complexity of the situation and the hard question to answer is how this can be done.

[14:20:00]

Many of us have been talking about sealing the borders with Chad it seems many. But if you seal that border in Chad, also, you will -- there is a

possibility of, you know what? Preventing people who are trying to flee from doing that. So we need further analysis of situation, where are those

people coming from? Where are they based? Where are they getting their supplies from? Where they`re getting resources from? Who is supporting

them?

And where is the army? Where is their police? Why they`re not playing their role? The legal(ph) community, international community has to engage with

those fighting there, whether it`s the -- you know, the army, Sudanese army, whether it`s RSF, in order to see how there`s going to be an

intervention for protection of civilians that would really be meaningful, stopping --

MACFARLANE: So --

SATTI: Their main game in Sudan in general, but particularly, in Darfur that needs a special attention of all that we`re seeing --

MACFARLANE: So more international pressure, more targeting of those who are supplying life-lines and links to these two warring parties. Can I just

ask you one thing? Yesterday, we heard from a top Sudanese official, Malik Agar(ph), calling for the formation of a caretaker government as a strategy

to resolve this conflict between the army and the RSF. And what do you make of that? And do you see that as a sort of potential softening in some way,

of the army`s stance right now?

SATTI: We have to know what he means by a caretaker government. Who is composing -- who is going to compose this government? Who`s going to set it

up? Who is going to control it? If it`s going to be controlled by his own people, those who are killing the people now, those who had initiated the

war, and you know, causing all these problems, we`re against it.

But if he`s calling for an all Sudanese government with civilian -- under civilian control, because the military and the RSF have proven that they`re

not qualified to rule Sudan anymore. If he means that the civilians should be engaged and involved in resolving the problem and taking part in any

government that comes, and they control it, and have a -- you know, draw out the policy that are going to pacify the country, then we would agree to

that, and we`re ready to talk about it, otherwise, it would be a nonstarter.

MACFARLANE: I mean, it continues to be an incredibly complex situation to tackle, but one that is now in dire need of attention. Nureldin Satti, we

appreciate you coming on and giving us your thoughts tonight. Thank you.

SATTI: Thank you very much.

MACFARLANE: OK. Dozens of migrants are feared dead after their boat capsizes off Cape Verde. We`ll have a live report. That next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:00]

MACFARLANE: At least, 60 people are feared dead after a migrant boat capsized off West Africa. That`s according to the International

Organization for Migration. But the Spanish human rights group estimates the number to be much higher. The IOM says the boat left Senegal on July

10th and was rescued on Tuesday off the coast of Cape Verde, 38 people were saved including four children.

It`s believed the boat was carrying at least 100 people. For the latest, CNN`s Larry Madowo is tracking the story for us from Nairobi. And Larry,

what more can you tell us about how long this boat had been in the water, and the route it was attempting to take, because we know that Cape Verde is

not considered to be a difficult migrant route.

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is not a typical migrant route, but that still leaves to the questions that we don`t know where exactly was it

heading, and what happened to the boat? We know that it left a fishing village about 90 miles north of Dakar, in Senegal, on 10th July, and these

migrants were rescued -- were rescued on August 15th.

So they had been in the high seas for over a month. And, in those conditions, the risk of hypothermia and dehydration is very high. So the

IOM estimates that at least, 63 people are presumed dead, and their numbers say that over 101 people here, all of them from Senegal except for one who

was from Guinea. But the Spanish migrant agency Walking Borders estimating a much larger number.

They say that at least 98 people could have died here, and 38 were saved. The likely route for this is a lot of these boats are migrant smugglers

using these rickety boats to try and get to the Canary Islands to be in Spanish territory, and therefore European territory. And there`s something

that the health minister in Cabo Verde has been talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FILOMENA GONCALVES, HEALTH MINISTER, CAPE VERDE (through translator): It comes with a lot of pain, yes. But we know that migration issues are global

issues, which require international cooperation, a lot of discussion and global strategy. Given what the world is going through right now with

migration issues, it means that we all -- all the nations have to sit down at the table, and see what we can do, so that we don`t lose any more lives

at sea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADOWO: Talking about the losing of lives at sea, the Spanish human rights group Walking Borders estimating that at least 778 migrants have died

taking this perilous journey to try and get to European territory. And this tragedy just another sign of the great risks that so many Africans will go

to, to try and escape war or poverty in their countries, to hoping for a better life in Europe, and so many of them don`t end up to those

destinations, end up tricked by migrant smugglers, dead in the seas in the Mediterranean or in the Atlantic. Christina?

MACFARLANE: Yes, just another case of the desperation that they face. And Larry Madowo there live for us, thank you. Now, a major announcement from

Iran`s foreign minister, Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi has accepted an invitation by Saudi Arabia to visit the kingdom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOSSEIN AMIR-ABDOLLAHIAN, FOREIGN MINISTER, IRAN (through translator): The President, Ayatollah Raisi has therefore accepted the invite and will be

going to visit at an appropriate time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Well, the foreign minister has been meeting with his Saudi counterpart in Riyadh. It`s his first visit to the country after years of

hostility between the two nations. They agreed in March to re-establish diplomatic ties in a deal mediated by China. Meantime, British Prime

Minister Rishi Sunak and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, are looking forward to meeting in person at their quote, "earliest

opportunity".

That`s according to a Downing Street spokesperson who says the leaders talked by phone today. British opposition politicians and human rights

groups are criticizing Mr. Sunak`s plans, given the crown prince`s alleged orchestration of the grisly murder and dismemberment of a "Washington Post"

journalist in 2018.

I mean, still to come tonight, prosecutors are pushing for a timeline that would put one of Donald Trump`s trials on a collision course with his

presidential run. Plus, a search continues for victims of the Maui wildfires. We hear from residents who survived the devastation next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

MACFARLANE: Welcome back.

The district attorney who is prosecuting Donald Trump and 18 other people in Georgia wants the trial to start on March 4th. The dates Fani Willis is

asking is an order filed with the court on Wednesday. It would be a day before Super Tuesday.

That`s when most delegates are up for grabs in the contest for the Republican Party`s nomination.

We`re also learning that Rudy Giuliani, who was once Donald Trump`s lawyer, visited the former U.S. president at Mar-a-Lago in April to make a

desperate request, settling up his massive legal bills. CNN`s Katelyn Polantz is live from Washington this hour.

Katelyn, let`s begin with that March 4th trial date, which by any standards is an incredibly target window, especially when you consider 19 defendants

at a racketeering case.

Is it going to stay, how realistic?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right now, the date isn`t even set. That`s just what the prosecutors are asking for.

There`s going to be a couple different steps to take place before we have a date on the calendar.

But right now when you look at that calendar of 2024, if this summer was the summer of indictments, Donald Trump next year, particularly the first

six months of next year, is very possibly the year of trials because there is not just this trial that`s trying to get a date on Donald Trump`s

calendar.

There are three other criminal trials, two of them that are booked --

[14:35:00]

-- at this period of time, one at the end of March, one in May. All of those things could move.

The one that is I think really to watch, as you look at which one might go first, which one is likely to be before the judge that`s most aggressive

and which trial is likely to have all the issues worked out much more smoothly or more quickly than others, where there may be 19 defendants,

multiple other defendants, classified documents, issues in the case in Florida federal court.

The case to watch is the federal case against Donald Trump in Washington, D.C., related to the 2020 election and January 6. That`s the date, that`s

the first day that any prosecutor has asked for.

Prosecutors in that case want to start the trial in January. We are waiting today to see the Trump team`s response to that. We expect them to ask for

the trial to be put off until after the election. But the judge over that case in federal court has already said that she`s not interested in that.

There are reasons to even want that trial to go much more swiftly. So we`re going to be watching over the next couple days, the next 11 days, where

some of these dates are going to start getting set or at least there will be substantial conversations in court before judges about how these cases

move forward, particularly the federal case against Donald Trump related to January 6th.

And the Georgia case against Donald Trump, the state level case related to the 2020 election, both of those have hearings, substantive hearings, about

how to move forward before the end of this month.

MACFARLANE: It still feels so surreal to wrap your head around what next year is going to look like with all these trials. Also, elsewhere, we have

extraordinary CNN reporting overnight, detailing how Rudy Giuliani apparently went cap in hand to ask Donald Trump to pay for his ballooning

legal bills. That amounted to some seven figures, I believe.

What response did he get, what can you tell us?

POLANTZ: Well, Trump was somewhat indifferent. This was Rudy Giuliani in April of this year, realizing that, aside from the full slate of legal

bills he might be facing, he had one debt of $320,000 that was really hurting his ability to respond to lawsuits related to the 2020 election.

He did indeed, according to reporting from our own correspondents, Kaitlan Collins and Paula Reid, we were able to learn that Rudy Giuliani and his

lawyer, Bob Costello, flew down to Florida from New York where they live, to ask Trump in person if he would help out with the debts or legal bills.

Trump wasn`t totally inclined to help and said he might help Rudy Giuliani with some fund raising. But ultimately Trump`s PAC, the Save America PAC,

gave Giuliani $320,000 for that debt. But he has many, many additional more legal bills into the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of

dollars.

MACFARLANE: It`s just extraordinary, isn`t it. Katelyn Polantz there with all of these threads, bringing them together for us, we appreciate it.

Thank you, Katelyn.

In the meantime, concerns are mounting over security risks associated with the former president`s legal cases. Among them photos, social media

profiles and even home addresses purportedly belonging to members of the Fulton County grand jury that this week voted to indict Donald Trump and 18

codefendants.

They are circulating, reportedly on far-right internet outlets. And a Texas woman has been charged with threatening to kill the federal judge

overseeing Trump`s criminal case in Washington, D.C. CNN chief law enforcement intelligence analyst John Miller joins me with more now from

New York.

John, the names of the jurors were apparently made public as part of that indictment. But not their addresses or any other identifiable information.

How concerning are both these cases, given the exposure that this judge and jurors are going to have in the months to come?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it`s very concerning in that it means someone took that list of names, the

address and basically what they call docked them on the internet, using the names to search out addresses, posting the addresses, cross referencing

them to social media pages.

So now you`re seeing the person`s name, their home address, their phone number, photographs of them from their own social media. We haven`t been

able to verify in every case that the names that they have matched up on the internet are those same grand jurors or just people with the same

names.

But some of the names are fairly unusual. They of course live in the area. So a number of them are bound to be likely and they have received death

threats and threats posted on their social media, increased police patrols. And there`s a lot of concern about what you get in return for doing your

civic duty in this particular environment.

[14:40:00]

MACFARLANE: I understand the federal judge or the person threatening the judge in this instance has been arrested as well. So it`s good to see some

response in that regard. As you say, something will continue to follow. It`s quite concerning. John, thank you for your thoughts.

MILLER: Thanks, Christina.

MACFARLANE: The death toll from the devastating wildfires that swept through Maui has risen to 111 now. Police chief say that some of the

remains they found belonged to children. The governor estimates about 1,000 people are still missing.

Search and rescue crews are combing through the burned ruins; about 38 percent of the disaster zone has been searched.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Make me cry, make me cry. (INAUDIBLE) over 20 years I stayed in my house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard to take in, you know, just seeing how this devastation, I don`t know what to think. We grew up here. This is home to a

lot of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACFARLANE: Fires are still burning on Maui and many residents still have their guard up. CNN`s Bill Weir shows us how some are trying to put out hot

spots with bottled water.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Aloha again from Kula, Maui, where the effort to put out these pesky hot spots in this upcountry fire

continue. This is Maui Fire Department with the yellow bucket.

You recall a report from yesterday where they had guys out in these canyons with bottled water, trying to put smoking hot spots down until they

actually eventually got some help from this chopper here.

But the latest here is just that death toll continues to tick up in a way that has people worried about whether it`ll jump if this will just be a

sort of a constant. One or two a day, about a third of the area in Lahaina town has now been searched. They`ve radically increased the number of dogs.

Now I believe the Governor said there`s 40 dogs working in that scene now says that they should be able to get a lot more covered in the near term

here.

I did see a couple of folks in FEMA vests talking to homeowners today maybe trying to get them into the system to make a claim for a one-time cash

payment or get some housing repair help but if your house looks like this, there`s not going to be any repairs.

So for working class, especially Native Hawaiians, there`s a lot to worry that they`ll be tempted to -- and can`t afford to rebuild and dwindling

that soul the cultural heart and soul of Hawaii, the natives is a great worry to a lot of folks here, especially rebuilding Lahaina town. There are

concerns, it turned into another Honolulu.

There`s a lot of talk about the alarm system. We continue to get conflicting information about what happened with the Governor saying that

maybe some of those sirens were old and didn`t go off.

We did hear from the fire chief who says it was never set off in the first place that the communication between the field and somebody to computer to

start the alarm broke down given the speed of the fire.

There were tests, they do test these alarms the first of every month so a lot of questions there for the investigation as that is unfolding. The

president and first lady coming on Monday; we`ll see if that salves any wounds from a lot of people who feel abandoned here.

Still no signs of National Guard although they say they`ve doubled the number of troops now close to 500 to help put out these fires. We`ll keep

looking and keep you posted as best we can.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: Our Bill Weir there in Maui.

We`ll be right back after the short break, stay with us.

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[14:45:00]

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MACFARLANE: Today in our series, Going Green, we`re looking at a household technology that hasn`t seen much improvement in more than a century. But if

a London-based company has its way, that could soon change, thanks to an innovative waterless toilet, designed to improve sanitation around the

world. Bianca Nobilo reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

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BIANCA NOBILO, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We live in a world of shimmering cities, with skyscrapers soaring above the clouds. But

amid all this technology is an uncomfortable, often taboo topic of conversation.

The World Health Organization estimates more than 40 percent of the world`s population does not have access to safely manage sanitation in their home.

VIRGINIA GARDINER, FOUNDER, LOOWATT (voice-over): If you`re walking down the street, you look and you`ll see perhaps a canal, which is obviously

full of human waste. And you`ll see bubbles coming up. Those bubbles are greenhouse gases.

NOBILO (voice-over): From her small office in southwest London, Virginia Gardiner is working to revolutionize sanitation for many people in the

developing world.

GARDINER (voice-over): There`s no one size fits all solution for sanitation. It`s important in any city, I think, to have a diversity of

solutions available.

NOBILO (voice-over): Gardiner`s company, Loowatt, has developed waterless toilet systems that flush, which can be used in urban or portable

environments.

GARDINER (voice-over): So what we have here is a per spec (ph) model of the electrified version of the toilet. When you flush the toilet, it pulls

what is in the toilet -- whatever you put in there --

(LAUGHTER)

GARDINER (voice-over): -- down through and it then goes into a container underneath. Eventually, once it`s full, you change the refill and you swap

out the container. So the act of servicing our toilet is a really hygienic experience as well.

NOBILO (voice-over): So far Loowatt has created partnerships in South Africa and Madagascar. In Madagascar, the social enterprise consists of

about 860 families, each paying about $4 a month for the service.

GARDINER (voice-over): So in Madagascar, the brand name of our toilet is a Malagasy word. So the home service is called Soomsor (ph), which means

serenity and well-being.

NOBILO (voice-over): After the waste is collected, it`s taken to Loowatt`s biodigester, which processes the waste into liquid fertilizer, compost and

even some electricity. Loowatt says the waste deposited each month is processed and converted into about five tons of fertilizer and four tons of

biogas.

It`s waste that, without the Loowatt system, might otherwise end up in a nearby lake.

GARDINER (voice-over): I think all human beings want hygiene and health. And so, it`s nice and, I guess, comforting in a way, to realize that some

things are universal for everyone. And I think that`s one of them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACFARLANE: For this and more stories about the innovative solutions to our climate challenges, you can visit for cnn.com/goinggreen.

Still to come tonight, CNN`s Richard Quest explores Mongolia, a vibrant Asian country with massive natural resources and a tricky geopolitical

situation. We`ll speak to him right after this break.

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[14:50:00]

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MACFARLANE: We`re back with more mischief-making news at the Eiffel Tower. Police in Paris have arrested a man for jumping off the iconic landmark

with a parachute. Sources say the man scaled the east pillar of the tower before making the daring descent.

He landed on the roof of a nearby building. That`s not the first time the Eiffel Tower has made headlines this week. On Monday, two drunk tourists

were discovered after spending the night trapped inside the monument.

What is going on in Paris?

I don`t know. And for many people now, Mongolia conjures up images of great khans, the endless steppe and epic horse battles and while Mongolians are

proud of their history, they`re looking to the future and foreign investment.

The so-called land of the eternal blue sky is wedged between Russia and China and it has immense mineral wealth. And this week, CNN`s Richard Quest

is there. Richard will be hosting his QUEST MEANS BUSINESS show live from Ulaanbaatar in just a few minutes` time.

Richard, and you`re joining me from the Mongolian capital. I`m very jealous, I`ve always wanted to go to Mongolia. I understand, Richard, it is

a country of enormous natural resources. Tell us what you`ve been learning.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN HOST: Oh, you could go outside and just dig and you`d probably find something valuable. I went to one copper mine, where they dig

underground very deep, a mile underground.

And they dig out copper; with it comes gold and silver. They sort of pooh- pooh the gold and silver, because the copper is so valuable. But if you had to actually design -- if you wrote it in a book, you wouldn`t actually

believe this country, because, in a sense, the fact you`ve got Russia to the north, you`ve got China to the south.

And you have all of these minerals, in a landlocked country with a near dictatorship in one and a Communist country in the other, it just shows the

enormous difficulties, this nascent -- maybe not nascent; this maturing democracy currently faces.

How do you position yourself between Russia on one side, China on the other, the third neighbor policy of Japan, South Korea or the United

States?

I put this to the speaker, the powerful speaker of the parliament, and I wanted to know just how fragile was Mongolian democracy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOMBOJAV ZANDANSHATAR, CHAIR, MONGOLIAN PARLIAMENT: Of course, democracies can be fragile, influenced and battered by the external and internal

factors. So far, for us, poverty, corruption, internal -- our internal problems are making our democracy more fragile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: The landscape is just magnificent. I would say, get here before people truly discover exactly how beautiful, friendly and warm Mongolia is.

[14:55:00]

It`s a bit of a trek to get here but, once you are here, it`s well worth it.

MACFARLANE: And Richard, we`re just looking at these amazing grassland pictures, which, of course, is kind of what Mongolia is known for -- and

horseback riding. I never had you pegged as a horseman, necessarily but I have seen images of you looking quite at home in the saddle. Talk me

through this.

QUEST: I grew up -- enough of that -- I grew up with horses. I didn`t ride as much as I have but I do love being on a horse. That horse was determined

not to do anything I wanted it to do. It was obvious who was in charge.

By the way, I want to introduce you to something that`s legal but probably shouldn`t be here in Mongolia. It was actually given to me by a very senior

politician. You know they love their curds, their cheese curd here.

Well now, if you take cheese curds and you mix it blueberry coatings, you end up with these snacks, which are I promise you -- and I don`t even want

to know the calories and the carbohydrates. But this is just indecently good. And it`s more fun that you should be allowed.

MACFARLANE: I`m glad it`s legal, Richard. I was a bit concerned for a minute there.

Stay with Richard and "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS," he`s going to be back right after this short break -- from Mongolia, no less. Thanks for joining us.

END