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One World with Zain Asher

Crowds Gather In Tel Aviv For A Vigil For October 7th Hamas Attack; Israel Vows To Wipe Out Hamas; Father Of Kidnapped Girl From Hamas Attack Told His Daughter Could Be Alive; Hamas Music Festival Attack Survivor Shares Her Story; Donald Trump Skips Another Republican Presidential Debate; CNN's Ibrahim Dahman Shares His Family's Journey Out of Gaza. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired November 07, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAIN ASHER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you so much for being with us. Coming to you live from New York, I'm Zain Asher.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Welcome to "One World". It's been described as the deadliest massacre of Jews since the

Holocaust. It was one month ago today that the militant group Hamas launched its brutal terror attack on Israel, shaking the nation to its

core.

ASHER: All right, what you're seeing there is images of crowds essentially gathering in Tel Aviv to sing, to pray, to remember, to pay their respects

to the 1400 souls who were savagely murdered on October 7th, or some of them burned in their homes, others gruesomely stabbed, some shot to death

while partying at a music festival. The Israeli Defense Forces say that 240 people are currently believed to be held hostage Hamas, likely being kept

captive in the maze of Gaza's tunnels.

GOLODRYGA: Their families say their lives have become a nightmare, as one would imagine. This, as they wait for word about their loved ones. The fate

of the captives hangs in the balance meantime.

ASHER: As Israel continues to bombard Gaza by air and by land, vowing to wipe out Hamas. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu dismissed calls

for a ceasefire until all the hostages are freed. He also gave a glimpse into his government's possible plans for post-war Gaza. I want you to

listen specifically to what he told ABC News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I think Israel will, for an indefinite period, will have the overall security responsibility because

we've seen what happens when we don't have it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Meanwhile, Gaza does lie in ruins. As you see images there, one month of bombardment has decimated the densely populated Palestinian

enclave, leaving much of it buried under rubble. According to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, seventy percent of the population is displaced,

and the death toll has reached a grim milestone.

ASHER: Yeah, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Ramallah is saying that more than 10,000 -- more than 10,300 people have so far been killed in

Hamas-controlled Gaza and that more than 70 percent of them are children, women, and the elderly. The U.N. is now saying that for children, Gaza has

become a graveyard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Just days after Israel said that its forces were surrounding Gaza City and set to enter soon, explosions interrupted a live news

broadcast there. A reporter could be heard shouting after two blasts in the buildings not far from the Al-Jazeera Arabic offices.

ASHER: Yeah, meantime, the Israeli military is claiming that it now has taken control of a Hamas military stronghold in northern Gaza and uncovered

a huge cache of weapons and intelligence materials inside, as well. The IDF saying that it also hit a cell where some 10 militants were holed up, too.

CNN's Nic Robertson joins us live now from Sderot in southern Israel.

So, Nic, just give us an update in terms of what's happening on the battlefield. Obviously, the IDF days away from entering Gaza City. Also,

the fact that Netanyahu coming out and saying that there could be tactical pauses in the fighting soon.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, it's very interesting that the Prime Minister said that because it comes on the heels

of growing U.S. pressure, as well as regional pressure. The regional pressure from the Arab neighbors to Israel has been for a complete

ceasefire.

The United States has been pushing for a humanitarian pause. And perhaps this is the first indication, albeit in the Prime Minister's way of putting

it, that yes, a tactical pause, maybe an hour or so. We've done that before.

I suppose it's possible if there are certain things to be gained from it in terms of negotiations, hostages, these sorts of things, but indicating,

again, that there was going to be no overall ceasefire unless there was a complete release of all hostages.

So, I think it perhaps indicates that Prime Minister Netanyahu is getting the message, the public message from the United States more clearly, that

he needs to give a little on this issue. No time frame or framework for what a humanitarian pause is going to look like.

[12:05:00]

But in terms of the fighting, the head of the IDF Southern Command today said that its forces are currently fighting in the heart of Gaza. Now, we

don't know what that really looks like. We're not there and it's very hard to have an independent assessment.

But from speaking to a few journalists who've been embedded with the IDF, Israeli journalists, their assessment is that Hamas is not coming out of

its tunnels to engage in a full, frontal firefight because it knows it will be outgunned and outmanned.

The assessment is also that the IDF troops are moving behind a screen, if you will, of heavy firepower, of targeted munitions dropped from aircraft

of targeted artillery, but also lighter, more sophisticated, less heavy explosives being used by the IDF to help screen their troops as they move

forward, to protect their troops on the ground, but also to minimize casualties to civilians.

And again, this is something that the United States has been putting pressure on Israel to do, and some of these sophisticated munitions we

understand that the IDF are using are provided by the United States.

So, you know, it seems on the one hand that the advance of the troops on the ground in one way is going well because casualties are relatively low,

according to the assessment of these journalists who've been embedded -- Israeli journalists embedded with the IDF. But at the same time, they're

not really getting to the Hamas leaders, and they're not getting to many of the Hamas fighters, which means they're not really delivering on the

overall goal.

ASHER: All right, Nic Robertson, live for us there. Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Meantime, conditions in Gaza are growing more desperate by the day. CNN's Nada Bashir joins us live from Jerusalem with more on the

humanitarian impact. So, Nada, we heard from Prime Minister Netanyahu saying last night that he, perhaps, will be open to little pauses. Other

countries stepping in, including Jordan and the UAE, to offer humanitarian aid. Give us a sense of where things stand right now in terms of getting

that aid to civilians.

NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER: Well, look, you're absolutely right. The humanitarian situation in Gaza is deteriorating by the hour. And what we

have seen over the last couple of weeks is not only hospitals coming under pressure, not only more than a million people now being displaced, but

there is real concern over how sustainable this situation is for those inside Gaza.

Now, as we saw today, according to the U.N.'s humanitarian office, some 5000 people inside Gaza attempted to make that crossing from northern Gaza

to the south, attempting to evacuate as per the orders of the IDF. They were given that window of between 10 A.M. and 2 P.M. said to be a safe

window to evacuate.

But the U.N.'s humanitarian office has highlighted that many of these roads have faced severe damage as a result of Israel's airstrikes, and that means

that many have had to walk on foot, including children and the elderly. Now, the U.N.'s humanitarian office says that some 1.5 million people

inside Gaza are now displaced.

More than 700,000 of them are taking shelter in U.N.-run schools. And while these evacuations are said to be heading towards safe zones, as highlighted

by the Israel Defense Forces, what we have seen continuously now is parts of central and southern Gaza continuing to come under attack by Israeli

airstrikes. We saw just in the last two days a number of refugee camps coming under attack as well. And there is a real sense of concern as to

where these safe zones really are.

No fuel is getting in. That is -- that means that hospitals are being pushed to the brink of collapse. We're seeing power cuts. We're seeing, of

course, shortages of medication and medical care. We have heard from doctors from Doctors Without Borders and they are treating children without

the necessary medication and painkillers.

So, the situation is dire. There is building pressure from the international community and from human rights organizations, both U.N. and

non-U.N. organizations calling for a humanitarian ceasefire. But as things stand now, it appears that the situation is only getting worse.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Nada Bashir reporting to us live from Jerusalem, thank you so much. Well, as you can imagine, actually, we can't imagine. It

has been a brutal month for the families of the 240 hostages that the IDF says are still being held by Hamas.

ASHER: Yeah, I mean, that's 31 days of having no idea what the fate of your loved one is, your child, your elderly mother, your son, daughter. Are

they alive or dead? You have no idea what they're going through. Doris Lieber took her pleas for help to the U.S. Capitol after her son, Guy, was

taken from the Nova Music Festival. Here's a glimpse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIS LIEBER, MOTHER OF MISSING ISRAELI: I need your help, basically. You know, I'm part of your people, you're part of Israel and America has been

like the best allies and I'm so proud of being an American, being an Israeli, as well.

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But I do need you now, because there's nothing helping me now. I pray, which I didn't do before. But just please help me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: So, powerful and heartbreaking, a mother's anguish there. One of the many tributes to the hostages around the world is this display

outside the Tel Aviv Museum of Art. It's a visual display of the heartache felt by the loved ones of those missing.

And CNN's Gustavo Valdes joins us live now from Tel Aviv. I mean, we heard that mother there. Just the anguish in her voice was so palpable. I mean,

every Israeli, whether they were in the country or abroad at the time of October 7th was deeply affected by those attacks.

I think the country will never be the same again. I think that the pain is that much more palpable for the family members of those 240 hostages. Just

give us a sense on the ground there of what those family members are experiencing right now. The pain, still a month out, unimaginable.

GUSTAVO VALDES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is right and that is what we saw all day long from the early hours in the morning where people started to

gather at the art museum. There was a moment of silence around 11 o'clock in the morning and then they sang the national anthem and that's when the

tears came out for many of the participants.

Over the day we saw all the displays remembering the hostages. There is a beautiful set up of paper flowers -- very colorful. The pictures of

children hanging from its petals. There is a number of mirrors, small little mirrors with just an explanation for people to look into them. And

the message is that if there's another attack, they could be the next victims. But the message throughout the day was that everybody wants the

hostages to come home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERAN MARGALIT, FAMILY FRIEND OF HOSTAGE CHAD MUNDE: We want them back here. Now we want to see that they're healthy and safe. And you know, we

hug them and we hug them until -- I mean -- always, it's just -- we let them go once, we will not let them go again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, everybody tells us that they know the reality in Gaza. They know that civilians are dying. They know that the offensive is also creating another

set of problems. But for them, right now, their only interest is to get people back home and try to get back to normal, whatever the new normal

will be.

ASHER: Gustavo Valdes, live for us. Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Well, this is believed to be one of those hostages, Emily Hand. Her name may sound familiar, because you have seen her father before. He

was initially told that she was killed in the October 7th attacks. He told CNN that he was relieved back then because being held in a tunnel under

Gaza might be a fate worse than death.

ASHER: But now, he has received the shocking news that she may indeed still be alive and that she may indeed be being held captive. He says the

unknown is simply awful. Thomas Hand spoke with our Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

THOMAS HAND, FATHER OF MISSING GIRL: From the morning of the seventh till now is a nightmare, roller coaster tragedy.

ED LAVANDERA, SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The anguish Thomas Hand is about to describe has left him trembling for weeks. It's a

journey of death and a hope of resurrection, he says, is impossible to imagine.

HAND: On the day it was Russian roulette, whether you made it or not.

LAVANDERA: On October 7th, Hamas fighters stormed the Kibbutz Be'eri, killing roughly 130 people and ravaging the community of 1100 residents.

That morning, Thomas's eight-year-old daughter, Emily, was sleeping at her friend's house. Thomas could not reach her as Hamas fighters took over the

kibbutz. Days after the attack, the Irish-born father spoke with CNN's Clarissa Ward about the moment he was told his daughter had been killed.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Thomas waited two agonizing days before getting the news.

HAND: They just said, we found Emily. She's dead. And I went, yes! I went, yes! And smiled. Because that is the best news of the possibilities that I

knew. She'd be in a dark room filled with -- Christ knows how many people, and terrified every minute, hour, day, and possible years to come.

[12:15:00]

So, death was a blessing, an absolute blessing.

LAVANDERA: Thomas says leaders of the Be'eri kibbutz community told him Emily's body was seen in the aftermath. But almost a month after the

massacre, Thomas was given news that almost made him collapse. He says the Israeli army told him it's highly probable Emily is alive and a Hamas

hostage.

LAVANDERA: How were you told the news that Emily might be alive?

HAND: That was official from the army with all the information that they have, the intelligence that they have, it's very likely that she's been

taken to Gaza.

LAVANDERA: Thomas says he's been told Emily's body is not with the remains of victims and that there was no blood found inside the home where she

slept the night before. Thomas also says that cell phones belonging to the family Emily was staying with have been tracked inside Gaza. When you spoke

with Clarissa Ward a few weeks ago, you said death would be a blessing in this situation.

HAND: That's how I felt at the time, yeah.

LAVANDERA: How do you describe where you are now?

HAND: Extremely worried about her, obviously. What conditions she's been held in. She's, you know, more than likely in a tunnel somewhere under

Gaza. Your imagination -- is horrible. And it's her birthday on the 17th of this month. She would be nine. She won't even know what day it is. She

won't know what day it is. She won't know it's her birthday. There'd be no birthday cake, no party, no friends. You'd just be petrified in a tunnel

under Gaza. That's her birthday.

LAVANDERA: Thomas is now flooded with the hope and the despair of what his daughter might be enduring. He prays she can somehow hear these words to

her. If Emily is watching, just to let her know that we love her, all of us, we're all waiting for her to come back safely.

LAVANDERA: The survivors of the Be'eri kibbutz are temporarily living in a hotel. In the lobby, there's a vigil to all the kidnapped hostages. Now,

Emily's family says the young girl's photo will be placed next to the others. You described as being a hostage as worse than death.

HAND: I believe so. The unknown is awful. The waiting is awful, but that's what we got to do now. Just pray and hope that she comes back in some

broken state, but we can fix her. We'll fix her somehow.

LAVANDERA: Do you allow yourself now to think about holding Emily again?

HAND: In my head, I can see, you know, like a beach scene, her running to me and me running to her. Just picking her up. Never letting her go. Ed

Lavendera, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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GOLODRYGA: Trauma, grief, and anguish. The events of a month ago have brought unimaginable pain to the families of everyone who lost loved ones.

As for the survivors who managed to escape death by whatever means necessary, they still face huge struggles of their own, which will likely

last a lifetime. Rafaela Treistman is one of those survivors.

ASHER: That's right, Rafaela was enjoying the Supernova Music Festival in southern Israel when Hamas terrorists approached and proceeded to commit

mass murder. We know that at least 260 people lost their lives there, while others, of course, taken hostage. Rafaela herself hid in a bunker, which

came under attack, and tragically, her boyfriend ran in and did not survive.

Rafaela joins us live now. Rafaela. First of all, I am so deeply sorry for your loss. God knows what you've been through over the past 30 days or so.

It's really important that people do not forget, right, what happened on October 7th in Israel. Just walk us through, if you can, what you went

through and how you managed to survive.

RAFAELA TREISTMAN, SURVIVED HAMAS ATTACK ON ISRAELI MUSIC FESTIVAL: So, first of all, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak

about it. I think it's really important to share a story. So, I was at the music festival with my boyfriend and a friend and we had a great time.

In the morning, we started seeing some rockets -- a lot of rockets and we started to run around and look for a shelter, and then we realized there

wouldn't be one there. So, we found one in a city -- near. And we got in the shelter and thought that everything was going to be okay because our

problem was the missiles.

So, so, some people became to get in the shelter also, approximately 40 people in a very, very small shelter. It's a shelter that is in the middle

of the road.

And an hour or something after we'd been there with a lot of people, the terrorists came. And they started to get in the shelter, shoot at people,

get out, throw at us grenades, throw at us Molotov cocktails and all sorts of things and get inside again and again.

At some point I lost my boyfriend. I don't know. He just got away from me. I didn't even realize it. And five hours afterwards, the police came to

rescue us from there. And from there they took us to a safe place and then to the hospital.

GOLODRYGA: I can't imagine waiting five hours to be rescued, Rafaela. I keep going back to a conversation that Anderson Cooper had with somebody

who was also there with you, who attended the concert, and then who was hiding in the bunker with you.

And he described the moment that the terrorists threw in what might have been a gas bomb of sorts. And how difficult it was for people to breathe at

that time and the fear that he felt just thinking he may die that way.

And he said the first thing that came to his mind was the Holocaust. And you don't have to be Jewish to put that into context. Can you talk more

about that time in those five hours while you were waiting?

TREISTMAN: That was one of my first thoughts, as well. A few months ago, I went to Poland and saw the concentration camps and histories and went to

ghettos and all sorts of places. And --

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GOLODRYGA: Rafaela, can you hear us? We're going to try to reconnect with Rafaela. We're going to take a quick break and try to reconnect and come

right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Okay, we have been able to reconnect with Rafaela Treistman who survived the Nova Music Festival Massacre. And Rafaela, there's no

appropriate way of going back to a conversation in which we were talking about the Holocaust. And you, comparing what you were going through to what

Jews went through so many decades ago. But can you pick up, if you can, from where we left off?

TREISTMAN: Yeah, so I was saying I went to Poland a few months ago and when they threw in the gas and they couldn't breathe, like literally, it's

like breathing into vacuum. You can't, you have no air.

And I saw like, I just stopped and looked at the situation and saw a lot of Jews in a small place and people throwing gas at us. So, it's the first

thing that came into my mind and I thought to myself, how is it possible that I'm going to die today as a Jew in the Holocaust?

[12:30:00]

It was like one of the first things I also thought and the people that were in the shelter, they also thought about that.

ASHER: The level of trauma, you know, the level of trauma, I mean, you talk about instantly comparing what you were going through and what you

were experiencing with the Holocaust.

You mentioned that you just come back from a trip to Poland. I mean, I just want to know how the last month has been for you emotionally?

I'm sure that you are reliving over and over again in your mind what happened on October 7th. Of course, you lost your boyfriend. So, there's

grief layered with that kind of trauma and the anguish and the pain and just the collective grief that Israelis are feeling right now after that

day. Just give us a sense of just how you're coping.

TREISTMAN: So, it's been really hard also because of the situation in our country and I have so many friends that are right now fighting for our

country.

And so many people that went through horrible things -- horrible things like I did and worse things and it's just -- it feels so heavy to live in

this world and live what we live and to see what's going on around the world -- the anti-Semitism and people against Jews and against Israel.

But here we are trying to stay strong and trying our best to stay united and to help each other and to meet our friends and family and meet our

soldiers when they come back home. That's the best we can do right now. With the grief, the post trauma and everything going on. It's been really

hard.

ASHER: Memories of your boyfriend give you comfort and give you solace. We're so sorry for what you experienced on that day, Rafaela. Thank you for

being with us.

GOLODRYGA: Thank you for joining us. I know this is very difficult, but it is important for people to know exactly what happened on that day. So, your

words are very powerful, and we appreciate your time. And again, we are so sorry for your loss.

TREISTMAN: Thank you. Appreciate it.

GOLODRYGA: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHER: All right. Israel will do what it feels it needs to do. Those words coming from the U.S. deputy ambassador to the U.N.

GOLODRYGA: Yeah, it came Yet came on a day where the Security Council failed to reach an agreement on a resolution to halt the fighting in Gaza.

[12:35:00]

The deputy U.S. ambassador to the U.N. stressed that Washington has not imposed any timeline on Israel to conduct its security operation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT WOOD, DEPUTY U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: As far as I understand, there is no open-ended kind of agreement. There's no agreement. Israel will

do what it feels it needs to do in terms. You'll have to ask Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHER: All right, one month into this terrible conflict in the Middle East, it is worth pausing for a moment to consider just the magnitude of

the death toll. We're talking about 1400 Israelis brutally murdered in a terrorist massacre, another 200-plus hostages being held as human shields

in Gaza, and more than 10,000 killed in Hamas-controlled Gaza.

That's according to the Palestinian Health Ministry in Ramallah, as Israel strikes back at Hamas. And about half of the homes in Gaza at least

partially destroyed right now.

GOLODRYGA: For some perspective on all of this, we want to turn to a prominent Arab American voice that is highly critical of Hamas. In a recent

column, commentator Hussein Ibish noted Israel's record of mistreatment of Palestinians, but then adds this.

"These well-understood grievances against Israel neither justify nor explain what Hamas did on October 7th by attacking southern Israel and

essentially killing or kidnapping everyone they encountered.

Hamas effectively perpetrated two huge massacres, the first of Israelis on the day itself and the second of the Palestinians being played out on a

much grander scale by Israel.

Hamas' cynicism is so profound that it's no exaggeration to call it an intentional human sacrifice of thousands of Palestinians in a desperate bid

to increase the organization's decades-long quest for dominance of the national movement."

And that brings us to The Exchange. Joining us now is the man who wrote this piece, Hussein Ibish. Hussein, thank you so much for joining us.

Now, we should point out that you make a statement and an argument here that we don't hear much from the Arab world as a whole, at least not

publicly.

And you go on to note, and I'm going to quote you, that it is essential to register the depth of Hamas' guilt. Can you explain why you believe that is

so essential?

HUSSEIN IBISH, SENIOR RESIDENT SCHOLAR, ARAB GULF STATES INSTITUTE: Well, I think you do hear it in Arabic but you don't hear it in, say, in the

diaspora media. In among Arab Americans people are reticent, say, you certainly get it in arabica in the Arab world, that's for sure.

But yeah, what I mean is that Hamas knew that Israel was going to overreact. Israel has a doctrine of disproportionality. It's never

satisfied with even a two to one ratio of civilians killed. It wants a ten to one ratio which we're getting close to at this point. It always wants to

inflict more pain on the other side as a matter of strategy, as a -- as a way of restoring deterrence.

Hamas knew this. They knew that when they broke through the gates and went into Israel trying to kill not just soldiers which they certainly did kill

and capture but also civilians or basically anyone they found, that they are going definitely to prompt an Israeli -- major Israeli counterattack.

And even if you could argue, as some people do, that they were shocked by the weakness of the Israeli defenses and how, in quotes, successful they

were. Nonetheless, they certainly were changing the stakes, and they knew Israel was going to counterattack.

What they want is for Israel to reoccupy the Gaza Strip in its interior, not from the outside, as they have since 2007. But inside, as Netanyahu --

Prime Minister Netanyahu, now -- yesterday said they're going to do.

And what they want is eventually to launch an insurgency against the Israeli occupiers and to say to the Palestinians, look, we are fighting the

occupiers for control of Palestinian landing Gaza.

The PA sits there, views security cooperation in the West Bank with Israel, and the PLO sits at the negotiating table listening to crickets when the

Israelis won't talk to them. So, we are the national movement. That's their long-term strategy. It's very cynical.

ASHER: Hussein, before we get to that point, I mean, obviously, yes, Netanyahu did come out and say, it is possible that the Israelis might

indeed occupy Gaza for an indefinite period after the war.

Before the Israelis get to that point, however, there is one very important step, and that is completely dismantling and defeating Hamas. That is what

they're saying is their goal.

ASHER: Right. Well, a lot of people I've spoken to say that, you know, you can't say free Palestine without wishing Palestinians' freedom from Hamas,

as well. How does that step actually happen?

IBISH: Yes. Well, I think that's true, of course. But look, the only way to defeat Hamas is a completely different scenario than the one that

Israel's playing out now. It's not by destroying infrastructure and equipment and killing a large number of completely different scenario than

the one that Israel's playing out now.

[12:40:00]

It's not by destroying infrastructure and equipment and killing a large number of people, both civilians and Hamas fighters, because Hamas is a

brand. It's not a list of individuals or a bunch of infrastructure and equipment. It's a concept. And as long as there's a bunch of Palestinians,

even 30, who want to call themselves Hamas and have a website, Hamas still exists. And especially if Israel does stay on the ground in Gaza, Hamas

will certainly launch an insurgency and that will breathe more life into the movement.

The way to defeat Hamas is to limit the amount of damage done and the number of civilian casualties and to do things that Hamas would hate, like

supporting their rivals in the PLO and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank -- that's what they fear.

And they were -- the timing was clearly linked to the prospect of an Israeli-Saudi normalization deal that would have brought what the United

States calls a significant Palestinian component, all of which would have gone to the West Bank and to Hamas' rivals. I mean, the timing was clearly

organized around that.

So, what you do is you deny them what they want, which is the long-term reoccupation of the inside of Gaza and the insurgency, and you force on

them things they don't want, like major support and political gains for the PLO and the PA and advancing a two-state solution and for this deal with

Saudi Arabia, which they also didn't want.

And I think you need to take a much more clear-headed view of what Hamas is and what it wants, and you deny them what they want and you force upon them

what they don't want. That's what victory looks like, not a huge pile of dead bodies and blown-up stuff.

GOLODRYGA: So, Hussein, what's the most effective way to get there in terms of who will be overseeing Gaza? Because it seems, according to your

estimates, what we heard from Prime Minister Netanyahu that Israel will be there for an indefinite period of time is playing into Hamas' hands here

and their ultimate goal.

So, what is the most effective process where Israel can remain protected and the Palestinians in Gaza can have democracy and freedom to establish a

land of their own and one day bring to a two-state solution that the West and many in Israel, as you know, are calling for, as well?

IBISH: Well, increasingly few in Israel, but yes, there is still a peace camp in Israel, thank goodness, not in the present cabinet, which wants to

annex the whole West Bank. But there are still Israelis who want that.

I think the way to do it is to do things like targeted attacks against Hamas leaders and trying to get at the people who planned and perpetrated

the attack is unavoidable in terms of Israeli politics. You can limit what you're doing, number one.

Number two, you can definitely avoid things like cutting off all necessities for everyone. There's no anesthesia in Gaza Strip. Children are

being operated on in the tens of thousands without anesthesia, they're cleaning wounds with bleach and chlorine. You don't have to prevent people

from having access to medical supplies or fuel or basic food. Now, that's not necessary.

And then also, Israel could create a buffer zone, you know, sort of along the Gaza border. And there are all kinds of ways of doing it. But in the

long run, the only way to defeat Hamas and similar radical groups is to go forward with a peace process with the Palestinians who want to talk to

Israel, that is to say the Palestinian Authority and the PLO in the West Bank, rather than bolstering and supporting the Palestinians who want to

shoot at Israel.

You know, Netanyahu in 2019 told a meeting of Likud Party Knesset members, anyone who wants to block the creation of a Palestinian state, meaning us,

needs to support Hamas and bolster Hamas and funnel money to Hamas. And he said, our strategy is to divide the Palestinians between the West Bank and

Gaza.

So, we need to put money into Hamas and make sure they get it. Doesn't mean Israeli money, he meant Qatari money and other money. But basically, it was

a divide and rule strategy that Israel has pursued since Hamas' founding in 1987.

And October 7th is the inevitable consequence. So, unless Israel changes its attitude towards the Palestinian National Movement and the Palestinians

want to talk to Israel, the PLO in particular, and stop bolstering Hamas at every stage, they are going to keep getting October 7th, I am horrified to

say. And the Palestinian people will have to suffer under the rule of these thugs, as well.

There was a poll conducted that ended on October 6th, amazingly enough, that found Hamas had, you know, less than 25 percent support in Gaza.

[12:45:00]

They're not popular because their rule has brought pain and suffering. And take advantage of that.

ASHER: Listen, I really valued your perspective because I thought it was extremely nuanced. I certainly think that, you know, a lot of people have

talked about this idea of whether or not Israel is sort of creating more terrorists through this whole process than it is defeating. But I hope we

can have you on the show again, Hussein Ibish.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Thank you so much.

ASHER: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: A really thoughtful piece. We appreciate it. We'll be right back.

IBISH: Thank you very much.

ASHER: You're welcome.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHER: All right. Right now, abortion rights taking center stage in statewide elections across the country. It is a day that could give

critical insight into what voters care about going into a presidential election year.

In Virginia, Republicans are seeking full control of the legislature as the governor pushes to restrict abortion to the first 15 weeks of pregnancy.

GOLODRYGA: This is going to be a very big issue for voters. In the swing state of Ohio, it's Referendum Day, on a bid to enshrine abortion rights

into the state constitution.

Since the overturning of Roe v. Wade by the U.S. Supreme Court, even red states like Kansas and Kentucky have voted against abortion bans, a trend

the Democrats like to see going into an election year.

ASHER: But it's the Republicans who take center stage in Miami tomorrow. The Republican National Committee says that five candidates met its polling

and funding criteria to be part of the third presidential primary debate.

GOLODRYGA: And here's who we will see tomorrow. Entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, Vivek Ramaswamy, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, South Carolina

Senator Tim Scott, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, and former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley. Former President Trump will be

skipping the debate again, and instead hold a rally in South Florida.

ASHER: CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins us from Miami to preview the debate and talk to us through a little bit more about what's at stake. But first,

Jeff, I do want to talk about the elections today because this is key.

I mean, a lot of Republicans and Democrats really watching today's races very closely to see what the electorate really cares about going forward to

the 2024 elections.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I don't hear anything.

ASHER: It looks as though we do have audio issues with Jeff Zeleny. We'll see if we can get him back.

GOLODRYGA: A theme of the show, perhaps.

[12:50:00]

ASHER: Just a moment. But he was going to be talking to us, A, firstly, about the debate happening and the fact that there were only five

contenders, Donald Trump again skipping the debate, but also the fact that abortion rights is playing such a pivotal role in the elections happening

in about 40 states across the country. Today, it will give Republicans and Democrats an important glimpse into what voters really care about. And it

sounds like --

GOLODRYGA: I think we do have Jeff.

ASHER: Jeff, do we have you?

ZELENY: You do. Yes, I am here in Miami. Sorry about that. Look, I mean, the debate tomorrow evening -- it's coming about two months before the Iowa

caucuses open the 2024 Republican campaign.

As you were saying, yes, there is election day today, and that will give us a sense of the direction of the country. But it certainly is the

presidential race on the Republican side that is going to determine who President Joe Biden is running against.

And without a doubt, I mean, this is still Donald Trump's race to lose. He is so far ahead, but no one has cast votes yet.

So, it's important to just wait for the process to play out. But at the debate tomorrow night, which is going to be taking place just right behind

me here in downtown Miami, it is going to be really a clash between Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and former South Carolina governor and U.N.

Ambassador Nikki Haley.

Those two have been really on a collision course for several weeks at the first couple debates. So that is what is expected tomorrow night. Donald

Trump, as you said, will not be here. He will at a rally a short distance from here in Hialeah, Florida. Again, skipping these debates, and so far,

that's actually worked out for him.

ASHER: All right, Jeff Zeleny, live for us. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

GOLODRYGA: And finally, some good news to bring you. His reporting is so phenomenal.

ASHER: So touching.

GOLODRYGA: Ibrahim Dahman, you have gotten used to seeing his reporting as he and his family have been trying to leave Gaza. Well, he has gotten

through and out of Gaza, and now we can tell you that his family, after being trapped for 28 days amid that conflict there, are now safe in Cairo

at last.

But for them, the horrors that they left behind in Gaza are never far from their thoughts. Here's more of his reporting, and we want to warn you that

the images in his report are difficult to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IBRAHIM DAHMAN, CNN JOURNALIST (through translator): Last month, my family and I fled to northern Gaza.

In the past month, my family and I fled from north Gaza. Buildings were bombed before our eyes. We became refugees in our home. I saw family

members caught in the crosshairs.

ZAID (through translator): They don't strike hotels, right?

DAHMAN, CNN JOURNALIST (through translator): My own children feared for their lives. We sheltered with over 100 other families in Khan Younis. We

witnessed many airstrikes and survived blackouts. We tried to make the best of a bad situation and distract our children. But we couldn't shield them

from the horror.

Last Friday, we were told to go to the Rafah Crossing. I was relieved to get out of Gaza. My home has become a graveyard. In Rafah, I saw many

families hoping to escape. My heart raced as our documents were checked. Zaid, why do you want to go?

ZAID (through translator): I want a safe place.

DAHMAN (through translator): There are no safe places here.

ZAID (through translator): That's true.

DAHMAN (through translator): The names of a lucky few were called to board the bus to Egypt. Finally, it was our turn. My wife put on a brave face. We

both worry we will never see our relatives again. The feeling of being in Egypt is indescribable. Are you happy, Khalil? What do you want to say?

KHALIL (through translator): It was difficult, but at the same time it was good.

DAHMAN (through translator): In Cairo, we no longer hear airstrikes. My sons look happy but I know they are traumatized. Sometimes, they hear a

plane overhead, and think it's a war plane.

[12:55:00]

I have to reassure that they are safe now. We don't know what our next move will be. For now, we can be a normal family again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: You know, just to hear him say that as a parent, they try to make the best out of a bad situation.

ASHER: Yeah.

GOLODRYGA: I'm always in awe when there's trauma. All that parents want to do is protect their children.

ASHER: And you saw the smiles on his kids' faces as they exited, as they headed into Egypt. It was so touching. And I think that one of the things

that I'm most impressed by -- by Ibrahim, is the fact that he has not stopped working. He's not stopped working for a single day since October 7.

I mean, incredibly brave, heroic, despite the fact that his life and also his children's life were obviously in danger. And having to explain to his

kids about airstrikes and bombings and sorts of things that they had seen which was obviously the stuff of nightmares.

GOLODRYGA: He's been a gift to CNN.

ASHER: Absolutely.

GOLODRYGA: His work has been so important and we're so glad that they are now all safe.

ASHER: And that does it for this hour of "One World". I'm Zain Asher.

GOLODRYGA: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Thank you so much for watching. Amanpour is next.

END