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Aired June 14, 2024 - 12:00:00 ET
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[12:00:26]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: No one has any idea how many of the hostages are still alive. Those are the words from a senior leader of Hamas. "ONE
WORLD" starts right now. CNN sits down with that Hamas official in Lebanon. Hear what he says about the fate of more than 100 Israeli hostages still in
Gaza.
Also ahead, showdown at the G7. Biden and Macron are butting heads with Italy's leader about what will or won't go into the final communique.
They're due to release that document later this hour. And later, working hard or hardly working. Dozens of Wells Fargo employees have been fired for
faking it. We'll explain, ahead.
Hello, everyone, live from New York. I'm Bianna Golodryga. Zain is off today. You are watching "ONE WORLD". And we begin with escalating attacks
along Israel's northern border with Lebanon, which are raising fears of a wider regional war. Israel says that it will not join a trilateral
framework proposed by France. Defense Minister Yoav Gallant accuses France of having what he calls hostile policies towards Israel. This as Hezbollah
fired a barrage of rockets into Israel for a third straight day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA (voice-over): Israel says there was a fire and property damage, but no casualties. These latest cross-border attacks erupted after Israel
killed a top Hezbollah commander in a strike earlier this week.
Meanwhile, Israeli troops used a medieval-style weapon to send fireballs across the border into Lebanon. Take a look.
DAVID MENCER, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESPERSON: Whether through diplomatic efforts or otherwise, Israel will restore security on our northern border.
Israel will respond with force to all aggressions by Hezbollah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Meanwhile, a U.S.-backed ceasefire appears to be in limbo, despite intense lobbying from American officials. CNN analyst says Israel
is not sending a delegation to any further ceasefire talks, while U.S. President Joe Biden calls on Hamas to step up and accept the deal on the
table. Here's his response to a reporter's question yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: President Biden, did you all have a chance to discuss a possible ceasefire?
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes.
UNKNOWN: Are you confident it's going to be done soon, Sir?
BIDEN: No. I'm not -- I'm not -- I haven't lost hope, but it's going to be tough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: He hasn't lost hope, but he's not confident that it will be done any time soon. Well, CNN sat down for a rare interview with a senior
Hamas official in Lebanon. He talked about the conflict, the hostages, and prospects for a ceasefire. CNN Senior International Correspondent Ben
Wedeman has the story and interview. And a warning, his report contains some graphic video.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Since the 7th of October last year when Hamas militants streamed into Israel,
killing hundreds and grabbing hostages, the war in Gaza has been an unrelenting nightmare of death and destruction.
Talks to end the war are once again bogged down, as every day the death toll mounts. In Beirut, we spoke to senior Hamas leader Osama Hamdan, one
of the few privy to details of the ceasefire negotiations. But not privy, he claims, to the condition of the 120 hostages still in Gaza.
WEDEMAN: How many of those 120 are still alive?
OSAMA HAMDAN, HAMAS POLITBURO MEMBER: I don't have any idea about that. No one has any idea about this.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): "The Wall Street Journal" recently reported that messages from Gaza Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar to mediators and other Hamas
officials included one in which he allegedly said the deaths of civilians in Gaza is a necessary sacrifice. Hamdan insists the messages were fake.
WEDEMAN: After eight months of this war, more than 37,000 Palestinians have been killed, probably more, more than 80,000 injured. Was it a
necessary sacrifice for the people of Gaza?
HAMDAN: You seem that you can't start from the beginning. Let's start from page number one. Why talk about the page of the 7th of October?
[12:05:00]
What about the Israeli occupation?
WEDEMAN: I'm talking about what came after the 7th of October.
HAMDAN: Well, the 7th of October was a reaction against the occupation. What comes after that, it shows the real face of Israel. It shows how
Israel is occupying the Palestinian lands, demolishing the situation of the Palestinians, killing the civilians. It's not the first time they are
killing the civilians.
WEDEMAN: I mean, Hamas is an organization. Does it regret what it did on the 7th of October given what happened afterwards?
HAMDAN: We are living with this for the last 75 years as Palestinians.
WEDEMAN: Now, CNN spoke to one of the doctors who treated the four Israelis who were freed on Saturday, and he said that they suffered mental
and physical abuse. What do you say to that?
HAMDAN: Well, he's an Israeli. He has to say what the Israeli authorities are asking him to say. If you compare the images of both before and after
releasing, you will find that they were better than before. I believe if they have mental problem, this is because of what Israel have done in Gaza.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): But in addition to what has been said about the four recent hostages freed, there have been also claims about the dire
conditions others faced while in captivity. The fate of the remaining hostages hangs in the balance. At the G7 summit in Italy, U.S. Secretary of
State Antony Blinken said he was hoping Hamas would agree to the latest U.S.-backed ceasefire proposal.
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The response we got was unfortunately not the yes that we were looking for, a yes that virtually
the entire world has given.
WEDEMAN: Okay, Mr. Hamdan, simple question. Why hasn't Hamas yet agreed officially to the U.S.-backed proposal for a ceasefire?
HAMDAN: We said it's a positive step, but we need to see the facts on the ground. We need to know what exactly the President means by saying a
ceasefire, a withdrawal.
WEDEMAN: What is left? What do you need?
HAMDAN: We need an Israeli, a clear position from Israel to accept the ceasefire, a complete withdrawal from Gaza, and let the Palestinians to
determine their future by themselves.
WEDEMAN: Are you optimistic at this point in time that you will reach some sort of agreement?
HAMDAN: Well, I think if the United States administration acted in the positive way, seeing the situation not only in the eyes of Israel, we can
reach soon an agreement.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): And in the absence of an agreement, this war goes on with no end in sight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN (on-camera): And so, with Hamas demanding more clarifications, we heard President Biden that he's not confident an agreement can be reached.
Israel has generally agreed to the U.S.-backed proposal, but we have yet to hear an explicit endorsement by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. So, it
seems that the hopes raised by President Biden when he made this proposal public on the 31st of May, those hopes which were raised may be about to be
dashed again. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Ben Wedeman reporting to us live from Beirut, Lebanon. Thank you. Well, for more on the war in Gaza and the stalled ceasefire, let's
bring in Yaakov Katz, a senior columnist for "The Jerusalem Post". Previously, he was the paper's editor-in-chief and its military reporter
and defense analyst. He's also the author of several books.
Yaakov, good to see you. So, first of all, just your response to that interview Ben conducted with a Hamas official, specifically as it relates
to the number of Israeli hostages that remain and their whereabouts. How do you respond to his statement that they have no idea how many are still
alive?
YAAKOV KATZ, SENIOR COLUMNIST, "THE JERUSALEM POST": Well, I think the Hamas has been playing this game, Bianna, since the beginning. The people
got lost in Gaza. They didn't know how many of the hostages were even taken. They didn't know where they were. They've been playing a very
cynical game when it comes to the lives of now 116 Israelis who remain inside the Gaza Strip since October 7th.
And they do this because they know that this is the way to continue to pierce the hearts of the Israeli people and probably lots of people around
the world by keeping them in tunnels, in homes, abusing them. And we've heard, as opposed to what Osama Hamdan said, that these doctors just say
what the Israeli government tells them to say, the atrocities and the sexual abuse and just general abuse that these people have been through
should keep us all up at night.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, that has been well-documented. You're right on that point. So, the question now in terms of how to get Hamas to move forward,
it seems the ball is in Hamas' court. Israel has as a whole signed off on this particular proposal. We've heard from the President and the Secretary
of State say that the ball is in Hamas' court and it's up to them to come up with an answer definitively.
[12:10:09]
I spoke with a former Shin Bet official who spent nearly 200 hours at one point interrogating Yahya Sinwar. And he said, listen, in terms of Yahya
Sinwar's timeframe here, this could go on for a number of years. And he said, the Shin Bet official, that there needs to be more pressure from the
U.S. not only on Hamas, but in particular Qatar and Egypt to get Hamas to finally say yes to a deal. Do you agree with that?
KATZ: I do, because I think that what's, you know, to America's credit, they've really been trying very hard to achieve a ceasefire deal that would
see also the release and the return of the Israelis, at least those who are alive, back to their families and their loved ones. But you need two sides
or two parties, two people to tango. And Hamas is not there.
And I think that what we're seeing, we saw this in some of the reporting of "The Wall Street Journal" earlier this week, where they reported on some of
the communication between Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, and other terrorist colleagues of his who are based in Qatar. And he says, we have Israel right
where we want them. And the people who have been killed, they're just a sacrifice of what we need for our national liberation.
I think what Sinwar feels is that the pressure is actually on Israel, right? They see the condemnations. They see that Israel goes in, Bianna,
rescues four of its people, Noah, Shlomi, Al-Mogh, and Andrei, just last Saturday. And what happens? The whole world accuses Israel of committing a
massacre. So, why would Sinwar feel the pressure that he needs to come into a deal right now?
Look, what could happen? What could change that? Is if America says, for example, you know what? We're totally on Israel's side. There's no clock.
There's no pressure on Israel. We're actually accelerating weapons deliveries now to Israel. That would get Sinwar to think that something's
not working, and he actually has an interest in getting this war done.
GOLODRYGA: And as has been reported, and as you know extensively, this was not a decision that President Benjamin Netanyahu came to, lightly, as well,
and many say that just the cynical side of him is probably breathing a sigh of relief that he doesn't have to walk the walk and talk the talk in terms
of agreeing to this deal now, because there was a lot of internal pressure and pressure from within his own coalition not to agree to this proposal.
Let me ask you about the situation that's continuing to evolve there and concern about a second front really opening up between Israel and
Hezbollah, a much stronger party, obviously, than Hamas is and capable of much more damage to Israel. There are two thoughts -- two schools of
thought here, that one, that Hassan Nasrallah at the end of the day would rather keep this at a lower temperature, doesn't want to expand to a full-
on war.
But the other is that, listen, any miscalculation could happen any time, and given what they're capable of, they could very well decide that now is
the moment. And the frustration appears to be that just like with the war in Gaza, at least from Israel's government's perspective, there isn't a
day-after plan, there isn't a longer-term plan. This seems to be a day-to- day sort of response. Is that fair?
KATZ: Yeah, I mean, you're breaking it down, I think, pretty accurately, Bianna. There's a feeling in Israel, on the one hand, why do we need a
second front? It's a much stronger enemy. If Hamas had, I don't know, 30,000 rockets going into this war, 40,000 fighters, Hezbollah is looking
at 150,000 rockets and missiles, some with precision, some with half-ton warheads, some with the ability to strike anywhere inside the state of
Israel.
The army talks about 5000 rockets a day. That would be too many for our missile defense systems, Iron Dome, David's Sling, Arrow, to be able to
intercept all of them. And we would see unfortunate devastation and casualties inside Israel, unlike anything we've probably seen before. So,
people say, if Nasrallah wanted war, there's an easy way for him to do that, fire a barrage into Haifa or Tel Aviv.
As long as he's not doing that, it's just him paying lip service and showing solidarity to Hamas, we can continue to contain this. The other
side of it, though, is we've had to evacuate 100,000 people from their homes in the north. We have capabilities that Hezbollah has, that at some
point, at somewhere down the road, they will use them against us, should we not preempt now.
And I can tell you that at the Jewish People Policy Institute, a place where I'm a think tank, where I'm a fellow, we did a poll this past week,
which showed that a third of Israelis, it's not a small number, want to see Israel attack Hezbollah right away, now. So it's something that really has
the country, to some extent, torn.
What is the right way forward? But I'll just say one last thing. People who say that Netanyahu is undecided on this, that I push back on. He has
decided. His decision so far is not to engage, to try to contain the threat from Lebanon for as long as possible.
[12:15:01] GOLODRYGA: Yeah. He is somebody who is, at least historically, not been a risk taker. He's been very calculated, although we've seen many faces of
Benjamin Netanyahu, especially when he is under pressure. So, this really is a tinder box as we continue to cover the growing escalation. Yaakov
Katz, thank you so much for your time.
KATZ: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we want to step back from the negotiations and fighting in the Middle East right now to reflect on the events that started all of
this and how they are still tearing the region apart. Earlier this week, a large crowd gathered in New York protesting against Israel. Outside of all
places, an exhibit dedicated to the young people, the innocent people who were killed and kidnapped during the Hamas attack on the Nova Music
Festival on October 7th.
New York officials slammed what they said were anti-Semitic slogans chanted at the protest. The exhibit is a stirring reminder of the horror that
happened on that day, and it was created by the man who produced the Nova Festival itself, Ofir Amir. I got a chance to speak with Ofir earlier this
week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: One of the most powerful parts of this exhibit are just the belongings that no one came to claim, from hats and bags, as you see here,
soccer balls, water bottles, to clothing items, and then ultimately the shoes.
OFIR AMIR, PRODUCER, NOVA MUSIC FESTIVAL AND NOVA EXHIBIT: Well, you know, everything that you see here, from all the belongings and the tents and the
chairs, and well, with the help of the police, we managed to gather all of these belongings, and when you see the shoes, it's clear, it's reminding us
exactly of what happened to us 100 years ago at the Holocaust, and people were running away and left everything behind, even their shoes.
And we also explain everyone that is entering this exhibition, it's not like a museum where you cannot touch anything. You want people to touch the
tents and the belongings to get the sense of what we went through.
GOLODRYGA: And this is the wall honoring all the victims.
AMIR: Yeah.
GOLODRYGA: How many in total? Three hundred and --
AMIR: Four hundred and one.
GOLODRYGA: Four hundred and one.
AMIR: Including the police and the security guards and, yeah, too many, I know too many faces here.
GOLODRYGA: Earlier this week, there were mass protests right outside this exhibit here on Wall Street. Some of just the unadulterated anti-Semitism,
what was quite shocking. People were chanting, "Long live the Intifada, Israel go to hell." In one video, a man declares, "I wish Hitler was still
here, he would have wiped you, Jewish people, all out." Something a lot of people have spoken out against. The mayor of New York City called it
despicable. What was going through your minds when you heard those chants outside?
AMIR: Well, you have to understand, a part of this exhibition, there are also a lot of survivors who come here and tell their story. And for them
and for me, it was like reliving this moment again, October 7th, that this feeling of helpless and some of the survivors had really a panic attack
because we are all traumatized.
And well, I'm not surprised they came here to demonstrate because I've been here in New York for the past two months and I hear in the news and see
these demonstrations at colleges and what's going on all over the United States. In some kind of way, it breaks my heart that there's so much hate
out there because we are exactly the opposite.
I say we, the festival producers and the Nova founders, but also as an Israeli and as a Jew, we don't hate. We don't want this hate. We don't hate
back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Make sure to watch my full conversation with Ofir Amir in the next hour on "AMANPOUR" here on CNN. Well, world leaders are just about to
wrap up this year's G7 Summit. This hour, they're holding bilateral meetings before going into their final session. Then they'll adopt the
summit's communique. U.S. President Biden and French President Macron want to add safe abortion access to that document, but Italian leader Giorgia
Meloni is resistant.
Earlier, history was made at the summit when Pope Francis addressed the G7 leaders for the very first time. His message? Make sure artificial
intelligence serves rather than destroys humanity. We're covering all the angles on this final day of the summit. Christopher Lamb is in London, but
we begin with Nic Robertson in Italy.
[12:20:01]
Nic, it was quite something to see the Pope there for the first time addressing the group of G7 leaders. Speak to the significance of his words
and even his being there, given his frail health and age at this point.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, it was hugely significant. I think if you look back yesterday, President Zelenskyy's
presence really crystallized and focused a lot of the thinking and effort and energy and the real lift -- the political lift that the leaders got
behind to make all the movements they made with the loan, with the security agreements, with sanctions on Russia to support Ukraine.
And so, yesterday, Zelenskyy was sort of the star, if you will, crystallized thinking and conversation. And today, the Pope really had that
mantle, had that role. And of course, he comes in with all the grace and the elegance that you would expect the Pope to have and all the gravitas
that he brings to the conversation.
So, those leaders, they sat there and they listened to him as the Pope talked about the idea that A.I. is a tool and it's a tool that can be used
for good or bad. He gave an example of the bad, automated weapons that can literally select, aim and fire at a target, non-humans killing humans. He
said we should never arrive at that point.
And he talked about an ideal where no one country in the world should get advantage of A.I. No one group of people should get advantage. No, the
haves should not have advantage and benefit over above the not haves. And that's part of that conversation we've heard from White House officials is
that the U.S. wants to sort of do two things here.
One -- one, try to reach that ideal that the Pope is talking about there by making sure in the developing world that they have access to the health
care improvements, the agricultural improvements, the A.I. technology, the good things that it can bring, and as well at the same time, align A.I.
governance. A.I. obviously is a global issue. And unless you can, as these sort of most powerful democracies, can align their governance of A.I.,
there's really no hope to align it globally.
So, that's what those were the two aims that they were aiming for. But the Pope really energized that discussion. A.I. is not something normally you
would expect to get a lot of excitement and buzz around. But he made that happen. And I think that really symbolizes what he brought to the
conversation today.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah. And the impact that A.I. is already having on the world, not to mention its expectations in the years to come. Christopher Lamb, if
yesterday's focus was really on Europe and the war in Ukraine, today we've seen that expand and the conversation open up to world leaders to focus on
the global south, on migration, on climate.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. And look, Pope Francis throughout his pontificate has focused on all those major
issues facing humanity. Early on in his papacy, he focused on the migrants crisis and then he moved on to climate change with his landmark encyclical
calling for action to protect the environment.
And now, in these latter years of his pontificate, he's focusing on artificial intelligence. And it is something he's very concerned about. And
that's why I believe he made that historic decision to go to the G7 summit, the first Pope to ever participate and address the world leaders in this
way. And I think he decided to do that because he does see A.I. as a major challenge for humanity in the future.
It is a tool that can be used for good. He believes it is something that can help humanity. But the basic message of the Pope is that machines
cannot replace human beings. He's particularly worried about the automated weapons systems. He said no machine should ever choose to take the life of
a human being. And he also had a strong political message in that he believes that politics shouldn't be seen as a bad thing.
He said, yes, politics is often seen as a distasteful concept. Politics can be petty. But he was urging the world leaders to take the mantle of
statesmanship upon their shoulders, to look more broadly than just the smaller interests of politicians. And he said that politics is a good
thing. It's the exercise of charity. And we need a healthy political climate to address these major challenges facing humanity and A.I. And on
that, he wants to see an ethical framework adopted by countries.
[12:25:03]
He raised the Vatican's own ethical A.I. framework document that the Vatican is seeking to get signatories to. It managed to get some big tech
companies to sign up to these ethical principles that should or the Vatican want to underpin A.I.
So, I think that was really a main reason why Francis was down there at the G7 summit, to try and encourage political leaders to come to an agreement
to find an ethical underpinning for A.I., which he sees as the major challenge, a major development that's facing humanity in the future.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and it is really notable that it's the Pope who's really the driving force here on this particular issue at the G7. There were
business leaders who addressed the group yesterday. Obviously, A.I. has a huge impact economically, as well.
But just the fact that the Pope, out of all people, out of all leaders, is the one who is addressing this with the leaders of the G7 and other
nations. Really notable. Christopher Lamb, Nic Robertson, thank you so much for your time.
And coming up for us, 30 years after the fall of apartheid, South Africa is set to have a coalition government. What it means for the once dominant
African national Congress and the country going forward.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Well, it is the beginning of a new political era in South Africa. The country's ruling African National Congress has signed a
historic power-sharing deal with its rival, the Democratic Alliance, paving the way for a coalition government. Lawmakers were sworn into parliament
earlier. Under the deal, Cyril Ramaphosa will remain President. And while the leader of the D.A. party celebrated the unprecedented new beginning, he
also warned about the challenges ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN STEENHUISEN, DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE LEADER: Even as this marks a hopeful and historic moment for our country, it is important that we are honest
with each other about the scale of the challenges that lie ahead. South Africa has the highest unemployment rates in the world. It has one of the
highest crime rates in the world. Logistics and infrastructure is in an advanced state of decline and corruption is endemic. None of us should
expect these problems to be solved overnight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: The ANC, the party of the late Nelson Mandela, lost its majority in May's national election.
[12:30:02]
CNN's Larry Madowo joins us now live in Nairobi for more on the political ramifications of this alliance. So, what are you hearing, Larry? Are
experts suggesting perhaps this could lead to just more gridlock in this new coalition or is there a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of
progress and efficiency moving forward?
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It appears to be light at the end of the tunnel, or at least that's the way the ANC would like to spin this, that
they are responding to the needs of the South African people who said, by denying them that majority, that they want the political parties to work
together.
The surprise was that they agreed to go into this government of national unity with their rival, their arch-rivals, the DEA, the Democratic
Alliance. Some black South Africans see the DEA as representative of the white minority. One of the political names best known in South Africa even
refused to go into this coalition, Julius Malema of the Economic Freedom Fighters, saying that he will not go into a coalition with a party that
represents white monopoly capital.
And so, he's left out of this, as is former President Jacob Zuma and his M.K. party. They were number three and four in last month's election. But
the DEA and the ANC have enough to form a coalition government. They've brought in two smaller parties, as well, just for a more national outlook.
So, the Speaker has been elected a short while ago.
The South African National Assembly right now is electing a deputy speaker. And then the next thing will be for them to re-elect Cyril Ramaphosa as the
President of South Africa. So, he gets to keep his job. But then his next job is to assemble a cabinet.
What these parties have done so far, according to the DEA leader, is to sign a statement of intent. The actual details, they will work out those
over time. So, there's still some work to do. They're calling what is called in South Africa as a lekhotla, a meeting of these political parties
to agree on a strategy to how they will govern in a government of national unity.
It's not going to be easy for President Ramaphosa, because even though he's the largest party, but he's only got 40 percent, for him to remain
President, he needs the DEA. He needs all these other parties. So, they brought him to the dance, and they will be bringing their own interests.
And they will be making sure that they are, in a way, an opposition within government. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, South Africans, indeed the world, will be watching. Larry Madowo, thank you. Coming up for us, the G7 leaders lay out big money to
help defend Ukraine. That prompted a big response from Vladimir Putin. Details after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to "ONE WORLD", I'm Bianna Golodryga. The G7 Summit is winding down in the coming hours, and one thing that came out of
it was a recommitment to Ukraine. The G7 leaders provided Ukraine with a $50 billion loan while the U.S. and Ukraine agreed to a 10-year security
pact. That loan being funded by the $300 billion in frozen Russian assets. Russia's President calls that theft.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The countries of the West have frozen now a part of Russian assets and foreign currency
reserves. Now, they are thinking about any sort of legal grounds allowing them to finally appropriate the assets and reserves. Despite all the
chicanery, theft will certainly remain theft, and it will not go unpunished.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: All this as Vladimir Putin lays out his conditions for an end to the war. He's calling for an end to Ukraine's ambitions to join NATO and
to surrender the four regions that Moscow already controls. Ukrainian President turned it down, saying that it is the same thing that Hitler used
to do. Earlier at the NATO defense minister's meeting in Brussels, Lloyd Austin says an expansion of the group is because of Putin himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: This war is not the result of NATO enlargement. Putin's war is the cause of NATO enlargement. And NATO is more
resolute and more capable than ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Well, time now for the exchange and our conversation with CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. He's also a "New York
Times" correspondent and author of the book, "The Perfect Weapon".
David, this is a G7 where it is fair to say that all but one of these leaders are politically weakened and are challenged in the coming weeks and
months. President Biden here, obviously, against former President Donald Trump, who has a much different philosophy in terms of alliances and NATO
and the view on the war and Ukraine.
You wrote a piece this morning about what the United States in particular is doing to safeguard against another Trump administration, this 10-year
security pact, the $50 billion in loan to rebuild the country. But you write -- your headline, "Will Biden's help for Ukraine come fast enough and
last long enough?" And that really is the key question here.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It is, Bianna, and great to be on with you. What's been notable about the G7 this year is
that there has been a lot of public backing of the Ukrainians. Of course, President Zelenskyy was here and signed that 10-year security pact. But
behind the scenes, there's a lot of doubt about what that really means.
So, when you dig into the security pact itself, it doesn't actually require the United States to do anything other than to consult with the Ukrainians
if they were attacked anew or if there was some major threat to Kyiv, for example, from the Russians. It also has an out in it, which is that either
side can exit the security pact with just six months' notice.
Well, this is exactly the loophole that then-President Trump used to get out of the Iran nuclear deal, also an executive agreement like this one.
Neither one of these are treaties. If a President can sign it, the next president can leave it.
GOLODRYGA: And this then puts President Biden really in a bind. This is likely the last time that he will be in Europe meeting with coalition
members before the election.
[12:40:00]
We have a 75th anniversary of NATO here in Washington, D.C., this summer with a summit. And a NATO official said that they expect a very strong,
significant push from Russia on the battlefield to coincide with that reunion here -- the meeting here of NATO members commemorating the 75th
anniversary of the alliance.
Obviously, Ukraine has gotten that much-needed funding, finally, after waiting for months. But is it in a place, David, from sources that you're
speaking with, at this point, just months, weeks away from that meeting, to really regroup and factor in some of that help that it's finally received
by way of weaponry?
SANGER: Well, Bianna, as you suggest, the weaponry is starting to come. Some of it's in short supply, including air defenses. And there's a big
effort by the U.S. to see if they could scrounge up some more Patriot air defense systems. The decision that the President made -- President Biden
made, two weeks ago to allow the Ukrainians to fire U.S. arms into Russian territory near Kharkiv has apparently been successful in sort of stalling
out the Russian attacks in Kharkiv.
But we have very little doubt that the Russians, if they've got the manpower for it, will then spread that effort further up. And there are a
lot of people here who are concerned with just what you mentioned, that based on what you just heard in that tape from President Putin, that the
Russians are going to try to have their own marking of the NATO 75th by truly going after Ukraine in those weeks leading up to the summit and
perhaps the week of the summit itself.
The summit is supposed to be a celebration of a new, stronger, expanded NATO, as you heard from Secretary Austin. I think Putin's going to want to
go try to push that to tell a different story.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, I mean, just optically sending four naval vessels off the coast of Cuba to coincide with the G7 summit gives you a sense of the
messaging that Vladimir Putin is famous for delivering any time he feels threatened. And it's interesting, we had President Zelenskyy now say that
patriots is practically a Ukrainian word now.
And it does speak to some of the frustration that many military experts and obviously the Ukrainians have been voicing since the early days of this
war, and that is that the U.S. and the West at this point should be quicker to saying yes to some of their asks in terms of what they're allowed to do
with the military aid provided by the West and giving them some of that aid because it eventually, for the most part, does get there, but just at a
very high cost.
SANGER: Well, Bianna, you've got to sort of divide that into three different categories. So, the first is the permission to use American
weapons onto Russian territory. And there President Biden, I think, was concerned, understandably, about escalation, including nuclear escalation.
GOLODRYGA: Right.
SANGER: And I think it's taken them sort of two years to sort of decide where the red lines are. The second has been defensive equipment like the
patriots. It's just in short supply. I mean, you heard the President say at his news conference that he's putting other countries on hold while he's
trying to get more of that to the Ukrainians.
And then, I think the third category is just understanding what it is that the pace at which the Ukrainians need this ammunition. And the fact of the
matter is the congressional holdup in the funding of several months turns out to have been quite damaging in slowing down shipping of stuff that the
U.S. did have in hand, and that was mostly ammunition.
GOLODRYGA: Yeah, and by the way, as you noted earlier, it takes a long time to procure some of these weapons, as well.
SANGER: That's right.
GOLODRYGA: It's not as if they're just sitting in storage somewhere in countries around the world. That has been a longer-term problem that the
West and these alliance nations have been facing. David Sanger, thank you so much for joining us. Safe travels back home.
SANGER: Thank you very much. Great to be with you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, still to come for us, a big bank cracks down on employees who were working remotely but allegedly not really working at all. We'll
tell you about mouse jigglers when we come back.
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[12:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Wells Fargo Bank has fired more than a dozen employees for allegedly pretending to work. Bloomberg reports the employees were cited
for simulation of keyboard activity, meaning they could have been using devices that make it appear that their computers were active, even though
they were not actually typing.
One such device, a mouse jiggler, became popular during the pandemic when many employees began working from home. CNN's Matt Egan has more on this
new workplace phenomenon. I mean, Matt, in a sense, it's not that new. It's sort of been the subject of many SNL skits and comedy movies. I think of
"Meet the Parents" and that famous scene where the official there at the ticket counter at the airport is just typing and typing away. I didn't
think people were actually doing this to skip out on work. Tell us more.
MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Bianna, I have to admit I had never heard of a mouse jiggler before this story. I guess that's because I'm really
rarely ever working from home. But apparently you can get these devices online for like twenty dollars. And it simulates the fact that your mouse
is being moved or the keyboard is being tapped on. It's a way to try to get around what's known as bossware, right? These software programs that are
trying to make sure that employees are actually working. And yes, this is somewhat related to obviously people working at home during Covid and
remote work after Covid. And apparently some workers at Wells Fargo were caught using a device like this.
Bloomberg reports they were citing some regulatory filings and they report that Wells Fargo Wealth Management Unit had fired about a dozen employees
after they reviewed these allegations involving, quote, simulation of keyboard activity, creating impression of active work.
Now, we don't know if these employees were at home, if they were on the beach, if they were actually in the office, because we know a lot of banks
are back in the office a lot of the time. We did reach out to Wells Fargo and the bank had responded in a statement saying, quote, "Wells Fargo holds
employees to the highest standards and does not tolerate unethical behavior."
Now, we should note this is the same bank that has, of course, gotten into a lot of trouble with regulators over the last eight years or so. It's been
accused of and admitted to opening fake bank accounts for its customers, of mistreating some of its employees, right -- of having sort of a toxic
workplace there. And the bank has said that they've been trying to fix their culture, trying to repair their image.
But as my colleague Allison Morrow noted in her story online, that, you know, firing people over mouse movers may not be the best way to foster a
culture of trust and inclusion.
[12:50:05]
Because it really does raise questions about why it is that employees feel like their bosses won't trust them and why some of the managers won't trust
the employees. But this is just one of those weird phenomenon that came out of the Covid era.
And now you have even on Reddit and on TikTok, there's actually threads and videos devoted to explaining how people are using mouse jigglers and how
they can kind of get away and get around some of this bossware. It's a fascinating topic and one that probably wouldn't have been all that
relevant before Covid.
GOLODRYGA: Hopefully, it's just a minority of workers doing this because we've reported so long about the fact that that workers, you know, I'm sure
you included and we've all been working remotely, have stated that they actually are more productive and do more work out of the office than when
they were in. So, we'll continue to follow this story. Matt, always something new. Thanks so much.
EGAN: Thank you, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Still to come for us, it happens to the best of us. Actress Halle Berry got caught up in a major wardrobe malfunction. We'll show you
how she and her aide there recovered.
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GOLODRYGA: Well, now to a case of extreme wardrobe malfunction. Hollywood actress Halle Berry was recently stuck in an outfit that was difficult to
take off, and her struggle to undress was caught on video. CNN's Jeanne Moos reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're used to seeing actress Halle Berry slinking around in her Catwoman outfit. But now we get to see her in a cat
fight with her stylist.
HALLY BERRY, ACTRESS: Ah! My hair! Ah! No! Ow! There's a zipper.
MOOS: Halle managed to get into the outfit, but when it came time to get out of it, she risked everything from shoulder dislocation to repeated
wardrobe malfunctions that left her momentarily exposed.
UNKNOWN: You're going to rip it.
MOOS: Women everywhere sympathized, been there, even fellow Catwoman actresses.
MICHELLE PFEIFFER, ACTRESS IN A CATWOMAN ROLE: Meow.
MOOS: Michelle Pfeiffer chimed in with a comment. "I'm usually alone when this happens." A third Catwoman, Anne Hathaway, has had her own wardrobe
issues collapsing in laughter as she tried to sit up in a corseted leather dress next to Donatella Versace, who designed it.
[12:55:08]
The designer of Halle's $495 outfit is Anna Quan.
BERRY: Anna Quan, we might have to cut this (BEEP) off.
MOOS: The designer's advice, "It's easier to pull the dress down rather than over the head --", adding that they'll be "-- considering longer
zippers". Finally, success.
UNKNOWN: Hold on, hold on. You've got to grease up your elbows.
MOOS: Forget elbow grease. The stylist gave her a licking.
BERRY: There we go.
MOOS: Maybe what Halle needed was a little stripper music to help take it off.
UNKNOWN: Take it all off.
MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: I'm just exhausted by watching that. Maybe she should have just gone with a different outfit at some point. I can't believe she filmed that
all, either. Thanks to Jeannie Moos for bringing us that fun story. That does it for this hour of "ONE WORLD". I'm Bianna Golodryga. Don't go
anywhere. I'll be right back here with "AMANPOUR".
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