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One World with Zain Asher
Israel Security Cabinet Approves Ceasefire-Hostage Deal; Palestinian Girl Seeks Evacuation For Medical Treatment; U.S. Supreme Court Clears way For TikTok Ban To Take effect; Dodger Stadium Hosts Donation Event For Wildfire Victims; Trump's Threat To Return Panama Canal To U.S. Control; Aired 12-1p ET
Aired January 17, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:32]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Live from New York, I'm Paula Newton, and this is ONE WORLD.
Fifteen months after Hamas set off a war that devastated the Middle East, the end could soon be near. Israel's security cabinet approved the
ceasefire hostage agreement earlier. Now, the full cabinet must approve it.
Now while Hamas says the last few sticking points have been resolved, we have to caution here. This is not a done deal yet. Now, the national
security minister and finance minister in Israel have been vocal opponents of this agreement.
If it's approved the first phase of 33 hostages, held by Hamas and its allies, would be released as soon as Sunday. Israel would release hundreds
of Palestinian prisoners and the people of Gaza might finally get a reprieve for more than a year of constant Israeli bombardment.
It obviously can't come soon enough. Gaza's civil defense says more than 100 people have been killed since the deal was announced on Wednesday. Nic
Robertson joins us now from London.
And, Nic, I'm sure that you are thinking back to the first moments of this attack when you were there in Israel. And given where we are now 15 months
later, can you bring us through exactly what's happened in the last few hours? And what it means for this deal going forward in the coming days?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. We understood in the early hours today that the agreement had been reached, agreed. The
security cabinet had to meet and vote on it. Eleven voting members, simple majority, that passed.
And we understand the full cabinet, which also has to vote on it, 33 members, simple majority carries, is we understand that it is meeting right
about now.
So they will also get to vote and if they vote in favor. And I think people who know the numbers well believe that it won't go against the agreement,
but it's impossible to know, unless you're in the room and certainly we're not in the room.
But if it all goes as expected at this time, then that ceasefire deal comes in to effect on Sunday. And just to answer your question, yes, cast my mind
back 15 months from now ago, October 7th, Hamas' rockets raining in. And then very soon, Israel beginning to respond.
And I think the takeaway from those 15 months covering the war there is the pain and suffering on both sides, the families of hostages. You know, I'm
thinking of Sagui Dekel-Chan, the -- one of the seven American hostages, speaking to his family. For instance, his wife has had a baby. That baby is
almost a year old since he was taken captive.
I think of all the pain and suffering those families are going through and all the pain and suffering we see on our screens of what's happening in
Gaza and remembering that Israeli officials still don't let independent journalists, CNN, of course, amongst them, into Gaza to report.
And I think we're going to see, reflecting on that, a lot more pain and suffering when that access is open to more than just the Palestinian
journalists who've been inside Gaza in due of this and well over 100 of them have been killed in this war so far.
NEWTON: Absolutely tragic circumstances that so many in the region hope will end in the coming hours and then more developments hopefully in the
coming days.
Nic Robertson, I know you'll be staying across this as we await yet another cabinet vote there in Israel. Appreciate it.
[12:05:06]
Now, as Nic was just saying, you know, the families of the Israeli hostages have put constant pressure on the Israeli government to do whatever it can
to bring their loved ones home. The brother of American hostage, Keith Siegel, tells our Bianna Golodryga, he's grateful to all the American
politicians who work to get the hostages freed, and that includes President-elect Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE SIEGEL, BROTHER OF AMERICAN-BORN HOSTAGE KEITH SIEGEL: I think that the two, the administration of today and the incoming administration of next
Monday showed that two opposing parties, individuals, can find a way to work together for the betterment of a whole.
And OK. Each one will want to claim some credit. That's clear. It is politics at the end of the day. Trump has spoken very strongly to the
release of the hostages and the end of the war. I need to believe that. I need to see him fulfill that policy. And I am more than willing to tell
him, thank you. You did what needed to be done at the beginning of your administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: In the meantime, for Palestinians in Gaza, a ceasefire, as we were saying, can't come soon enough. The deal calls for a surge of humanitarian
aid in the Palestinian territory. It could also enable more people to actually leave Gaza for medical treatment abroad.
CNN's Jomana Karadsheh now on the story of one girl, and there are many. Her report, though, we want to warn you, contains graphic images that you
may find disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Habiba. She's just 2 years old, but Habiba may not have long to live. What you're seeing
all over her body, doctors believe, is caused by a rare genetic condition, protein C deficiency. It causes excessive blood clotting, which spreads all
over her body.
What's spreading through her body doubled in size or even more in a matter of minutes, her mother Rena (ph) says. I saw the blood starting in one arm
and spreading to the other. Habiba is in so much pain, she can't eat or sleep.
Leave me alone. Leave me alone, she cries. Even her mother's gentle touch is too much. She says, mama wawa or ouch, and I can't do anything for her,
Rena says.
Habiba's condition is rare, but it could be treated, just not in Gaza, where health care has been decimated by Israel, where medical workers have
been left with little to save lives. And parents like Rena left helpless as they watch their children suffer and die a slow death.
She tells me, mama, help me stand up. Mama, I want to walk. I want to put my shoes on, so I can go bye-bye, Rena says. She wants to play. She can't
even do the most basic things like hold her pacifier.
This was Habiba just a few months ago. Her mother says she was a happy child, so full of life. Now she lies motionless on a hospital bed. Surgical
gloves turn into balloons to try and cheer her up.
After massive effort by aid groups, the Israeli military approved Habiba for a medical evacuation. A U.N. and Red Crescent convoy moved her and her
mom out of Gaza City.
It's only a first step in what's usually a long and complex process of getting Palestinians out of Gaza for urgent medical treatment. A comment to
CNN, Israeli authorities say they have facilitated the evacuation of more than 1,000 Palestinians abroad for medical treatment in recent months, but
more than 12,000 Gazans have been waiting for Israeli approvals for months.
In one of the last hospitals in the South, Rena's reunited with her sister for the first time in 15 months. They're like so many families torn apart
by a vicious war. And now this mother was forced to make an impossible choice.
To stay by Habiba's side, she had to leave her 11-year-old son behind. Habiba's condition is deteriorating by the day. They don't know when she'll
be allowed out of Gaza. Even with the ceasefire deal, it could still take time. Time Habiba doesn't have. Doctors believe it's too late to save her
right leg. Her other limbs and her life are now at risk.
[12:10:02]
And unless they get her out of Gaza soon, it might be too late to save little Habiba.
Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Now, the other major story we're covering here. It broke a short time ago. The U.S. Supreme Court clearing the way for a ban on TikTok to go
into effect on Sunday.
Now, the high court rejecting an appeal from the popular app which claims the ban violates the First Amendment. That is the one that deals with
freedom of speech. The Biden White House is signaling it won't enforce the ban. Instead, it says it will let that task fall to the incoming Trump
administration.
Now, President-elect Trump spoke to our Pamela Brown just a short time ago, and he said he'll quote, be making the decision.
CNN's Alayna Treene is in West Palm Beach, Florida. Our Marc Stewart is covering all of this from Beijing. Alayna, we do start with you.
So it is over to you, President-elect Trump. What are you hearing from the incoming administration? Because there is, to say the least, a lot of
confusion about exactly what they're going to do about this ban.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: There is. And there's a couple ways to look at this. One is that the law does allow that if there is some sort of viable
deal on the table that the ban could be paused and that they could, you know, try to work to some sort of resolution, which is what Donald Trump
wants.
But we also know and we have reported that Donald Trump and his team are considering a potential executive order once he is sworn into office come
Monday that would effectively pause this ban as well to really give his incoming administration time to try to negotiate some sort of alternative,
whether that be working to find a U.S.-based company that would buy TikTok.
Of course, we have heard from TikTok that they do not plan to divest from ByteDance, but that are some of the -- these are some of the options that
are on the table.
What we do know is that Donald Trump really does want to try and find a way to save TikTok. He has said that repeatedly himself. We also know that late
last month, as the Supreme Court was weighing whether or not to uphold the ban.
And before they obviously made their decision today, Donald Trump has asked the Supreme Court and really urged them to put a pause on the ban so that
his incoming administration could try to find some sort of resolution.
But, Paula, I do want to be clear that this is a reversal from what Donald Trump had previously done. Back in 2020, when he was still in office during
his first administration, shortly before departing the White House, Donald Trump tried to move to ban TikTok because of the national security concerns
around it and wanting, really asking them to try and divest from their Chinese-owned company.
That is now, of course, not his position. He has said publicly that he has warmed to TikTok in part because many voters and young people in this
country who voted for him, he believes, did so because they saw his campaign and their messaging on TikTok.
Now, a couple other things I just want to quickly point out. One is that we know that Donald Trump has been in contact with the CEO of TikTok, Shou
Chew. We also know that Chew went to Mar-a-Lago in December and met with Donald Trump in person, but also that he's going to be attending Donald
Trump's inauguration on Monday. He's expected to have prime seating alongside some of Donald Trump's Cabinet, picks, family members, and other
leaders of major tech companies.
But we also know that this morning Donald Trump spoke with Chinese President Xi Jinping, and one of the topics that they discussed was TikTok,
according to Donald Trump.
So all of this is, of course, complicating some of the broader considerations of what exactly is going to happen.
But as of now, because of what the Supreme Court said, the ban is expected to go into effect on Sunday.
NEWTON: Yes. Thanks for covering all of that for us, because obviously Donald Trump knows, because he's heard from those around him that, look, no
one knows what will actually happen to their app come Sunday, and they are now looking to him, even though he's not president officially until Monday.
Marc Stewart, you've been following this for several months now. As Alayna said, President Xi had a phone call with Donald Trump. What more are you
hearing from the government there, considering they say, look, ByteDance owns TikTok and it is not willing to give it up?
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, here's what's so interesting, Paula. President-elect Trump is acknowledging that TikTok was part of the
conversation. Yet, if you read the readouts from China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, well, first of all, it does acknowledge that a phone call
took place between President Xi and President Trump. It's the first time that we have seen China acknowledge a call, but there is no mention of the
topic of TikTok.
Instead, as we look through it, a lot of diplomatic speak, talking about a new starting point in this relationship and the need for mutual agreement
and for a very positive step forward. But TikTok is not at all part of that -- part of that mention. So for people in China, that's not part of the
conversation.
This is something that's important to remember here. China is at a point right now where it's really trying to establish itself as a leader of a new
world order. In addition, it needs to appear strong to its citizens itself.
[12:15:08]
So China is not going to do anything where it appears to be perhaps taking orders or following commands from the United States.
Now as Alayna mentioned, you know, ByteDance and TikTok said they're not for sale. But, you know, whatever is agreed upon from the U.S. standpoint,
China is certainly going to have to be comfortable with it because it does not want to appear weak on this global stage.
China, though, in the past has been very critical of the United States' response and handling of all of this, saying that it's been acting like a
bully and that it doesn't respect the free market economy. And it will likely have some influence as to how this happens next.
And finally, Paula, I think this is just an interesting observation here. You know, there's all of this discussion about free speech, yet in China,
popular American apps like Facebook, like Instagram, like YouTube, they cannot be accessed by the average Chinese citizen. They are blocked by this
electronic firewall that is a big part of life here in China.
Now I have an American phone. I'm able to use these different apps, but for most Chinese citizens, that's not -- that's not just not an option. And I'm
bringing that up because it's an interesting contrast as we talk about this broader debate about free speech, about national security, and about
diplomatic relations, Paula.
NEWTON: Yes. It is an important point that there is no reciprocity on these kinds of things when it comes to China.
Marc Stewart, in the early morning hours of the weekend there in Beijing for us, really appreciate the reporting.
We want to bring in CNN legal analyst, Carrie Cordero now. And we've been asking you about this for several weeks now. And I do want to lean on your
national security background. Apparently, there was credible evidence that from the point of view of national security, the concerns about banning
TikTok, that it was valid.
What would you say now, especially that it seems like President-elect Donald Trump may be willing to negotiate something here?
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So the Supreme Court's decision, and they actually noted in their decision that they made their
decision on the national security grounds and accepting the government's arguments on national security grounds solely based on the unclassified
records.
So the court went out of its way to point out that it wasn't looking at classified information like Congress did when it passed the law, but it was
only based on the open record that existed in this case.
And still the Supreme Court was satisfied that the government's national security equities were persuasive and that the law that Congress passed was
appropriate in light of those national security equities.
NEWTON: Now, Carrie, you have said that you worry about the sustainability of this ban. What do you mean by that? And are you talking about how it may
apply to other social media apps going forward?
CORDERO: Yes. I think -- so long term -- well, first, there's the short- term and the long term. So in the short-term, we'll see how this is actually implemented to the extent that President-elect Trump is looking at
potential options for not letting this go into effect.
On one hand, the law doesn't really provide a whole lot of flexibility for the incoming president once January 19th passed. And so he would actually
have to direct his Justice Department, I think, to not enforce the law.
That would then put him as president in a couple days in a really unusual position in that it was the government, the executive branch itself that
was making the national security arguments in this case.
So by pausing the implementation of the law, if he's even able to do that, it actually going actually would be going against the national security
justification and the threats that the national security community has set.
Longer term, I do wonder what type of precedent this might set. Now, the Supreme Court did take pains in its written opinion to couch this as very
narrow opinion.
But I do think long-term, we will see whether it opens the door for other potential allegations that other communications platforms have foreign
influence and whether or not those then lose access.
What we have to be worried about just from sort of a big picture democracy standpoint, is that the United States doesn't start falling into the
pattern of other countries like our reporter was describing with respect to China where access to information is limited by the government through not
enabling people to have access to certain apps.
NEWTON: Yes. Government overreach here could certainly be a risk, especially when, as you say, the government can come back and just say,
well, we have classified information, but not declassify, you know, what they're basing the ruling on.
Carrie Cordero, as always for us, we continue to parse what is a complicated set of prescriptions to come in the following days. Appreciate
it.
[12:20:07]
Now still to come for us, adding insult to injury. Forecasters are again warning of potentially dangerous winds as crews desperately battle
wildfires in Southern California. We'll have that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: Monday's inauguration ceremony of President-elect Donald Trump will be moved indoors. That's due to dangerously cold temperatures forecast for
Washington, D.C. That's also according to Trump's Truth Social account.
Now the swearing-in ceremony will be moved to the Capitol Rotunda, which, of course, also means that fewer people will be able to witness it in
person.
Now the last time an inauguration was moved indoors was for President Ronald Reagan in 1985. Forecasters say Monday's high in Washington will be
in the low to mid 20s. Indeed, that's cold. We'll get more on this story as it develops.
We do want to turn now though to the devastating wildfires in Southern California where more than 170,000 people are still under evacuation
orders. Officials say residents will have to wait, at least, another week before they can return to their homes to survey damage and retrieve
essential items.
Now since the wildfires broke out in Los Angeles County early this month, at least 27 people have died and more than 30 are still unaccounted for at
this hour.
Now favorable weather over the past day or so has helped firefighters battle these blazes, but forecasters are warning of potentially dangerous
winds, and that would come again perhaps the middle of next week.
I want to go now to CNN's Julia Vargas Jones. She joins us now from a donation event at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles that benefits wildfire
victims.
Julia, grateful to have you on the ground there and grateful that everyone's getting some type of a reprieve. You know, the one thing that
sticks with me in terms of the need there was kids just saying to their parents that didn't understand, I just want to go home and parents having
to say, you have no home. And everything that you loved there is no more.
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Paula. I mean, that is heartbreaking. I'll say, you know, last night we went to a community
meeting for people affected by the Palisades Fire. And we heard from authorities like, please just submit your questions to us in writing. And
there were so many people asking that question. When can I go look at my home? When can I see for myself what happened to it? Or if my home is still
standing. Can I go and get my belongings?
[12:25:06]
But what authorities are saying is that, look, this is a very dangerous environment for you to go into. There's still, you know, toxic fumes coming
off of these materials that might have burned. They're saying, please, just wait a little while longer.
Now, meanwhile, these relief efforts are still getting on the ground going. One of these Dodger Stadium behind me here, Paula. This is an initiative
from 12 different teams, sports teams here in L.A. They've raised about $8 million for victims of the fire.
People affected by these evacuation orders will be brought in, about 800 people, and they'll be getting essential items such as hand sanitizers and
masks that will allow them, you know, to go outside. Even Los Angeles air quality is still bad in a lot of these areas.
And perhaps also meet some of their idols. There will be players, athletes from different sports teams. I think to also a little bit of reprieve like
you mentioned from this really difficult situation.
Some of the players from these teams. Shohei Ohtani, the star of the L.A. Dodgers, pledging $500,000 to both victims and first responders. We also
heard from Freddie Freeman and his wife Chelsea from the L.A. Dodgers, another $300,000.
And then Hollywood coming in. Jamie Lee Curtis, Beyonce, Paris Hilton, Leonardo DiCaprio, all of these stars donating anywhere between $100,000 to
$2.5 million. Taylor Swift, an undisclosed amount donated.
And, of course, the government efforts for this relief as well. Governor Gavin Newsom asking for $2.5 billion to be diverged from California to this
recovery effort.
But, Paula, this is all so much more will be needed for this recovery to really take place. We don't even have a sense of the magnitude of the
situation as these fires are still burning.
NEWTON: Yes. The task at hand is just so immense. And as you said, the very real possibility that this, even before they could get home, it might be
several weeks.
Julia Vargas Jones, I want to thank you for all your work on the ground there. Appreciate it.
Now, of course, for more information about how you can help the victims of the L.A. wildfires, go to cnn.com/impact.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:30:06]
NEWTON: And a warm welcome back to ONE WORLD. I'm Paula Newton in New York.
Now returning to our top story, the Supreme Court has ruled that a controversial ban on TikTok in the U.S. can go ahead from Sunday.
Now, the move rejects an appeal from the app that claimed the ban violated the First Amendment, that which protects free speech.
President-elect Donald Trump says he spoke with China's leader, Xi Jinping, on the matter earlier. Trump spoke to our Pamela Brown and says, he'll be
making the decision, that's a quote from him on whether to enforce the ban, this comes after the Biden administration said it was leaving that decision
to the president-elect.
We want to go straight to our CNN media correspondent, Hadas Gold, who's been following all of this for us.
I mean, the plot thickens here, Hadas. If we can first deal with users of the app, and I know that there are so many, beyond the fact that they're
amused by it or like it, there are so many that make a living from it.
So, what can they expect on Sunday?
HADAS GOLD, CNN MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There's millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars worth of advertisement that goes to TikTok. Some of
that, of course, going to those creators who have millions of followers who make their livelihood off of it.
But as of Sunday, for a lot of users, when they try to log in, the app may or may not work. Now there's a question of what exactly that's going to
look like. Because this law actually targets the app stores and the cloud service providers.
So even if the app lives on your phone and you try to open it on Sunday, it might sort of be a bit buggy if the -- if your information has to be routed
to a cloud service provider that's outside of the country.
And over time, even if it continues to live on your phone, you won't be able to update it, so it's not going to work as well.
But there is also some reporting that TikTok is considering just kind of shutting itself down. It's going to show a pop-up that will explain the
ban, potentially giving users the opportunity to download their data.
And I should note, Paula, this is important. This might actually also affect users outside of the United States, because depending on where you
are, the cloud service provider for your version of the app may actually be in the United States. So there are some users internationally who may run
into some difficulties as well.
Now creators, when you're going on right now at TikTok, they're all sort of scrambling, trying to figure out what they're going to do next. There's
some of them are trying to encourage their followers to go onto other apps. Some of them are going even old school and, you know, trying to get people
to give them their email lists to try and make email listservs, kind of to blast out what they're going to be doing next. Others are encouraging
people to use VPNs as a way to get around this ban.
And there's a lot of questions, of course, of what will President-elect Trump do. Will he be able to do something to change this ban in any which
way? And we are hearing, of course, from Washington some elected members of Congress trying to encourage a delay.
But as things stand right now, court -- from the Supreme Court, from this ruling, this ban will take effect on Sunday. And so far, we actually have
not yet heard from TikTok or ByteDance themselves to comment on this.
NEWTON: Yes. TikTok an app term at this hour, when we expect this to take effect on Sunday. Hadas Gold, thanks so much and thank you for mentioning
those international users as well who may be affected by it.
Now a ceasefire and hostage release deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza is now one step closer to reality. Israel's full cabinet is set to vote soon,
we believe, on the deal which is set to go into effect Sunday.
The 11-member security cabinet has already approved the agreement. A source tells CNN the Israeli prime minister says he received guarantees from
negotiators that the U.S. would back a return to war if future talks with Hamas break down.
Now, meantime, Israel is keeping up its bombardment of Gaza. Gaza's civil defense says more than 110 people have been killed since the deal was
announced. More than half, they say, were women and children.
Of course, the TikTok story and the drama we were just talking about, the Middle East, give us plenty to talk about with our next guest. Joining me
now is Mark Esper. He is a CNN political analyst and the former U.S. defense secretary during Donald Trump's first term in office.
[12:35:05]
Any thought for your successor here in terms of the Trump administration itself. A lot already on the books and who could have predicted that we
begin with an app, right?
Listen --
MARK ESPER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
NEWTON: -- as we've been making clear here, the Supreme Court didn't even see any classified information. They based it on unclassified information
and said they determined it would be a national security risk.
At someone who has been privy in the past to some of this information, where do you stand on this? Is TikTok, could it potentially be a national
security risk given that the data does rest with the Chinese Communist Party?
ESPER: Well, first of all, good afternoon, Paula. Look, first of all, this is the one issue or one of just a few issues that the Congress, the divided
Congress, spoke on in bipartisan agreement in both chambers last year, saying that this ban, so-called ban should be in place.
And they did it not just once, but twice. And so I think the Supreme Court also weighed that as well, saying that there was -- there was so much
agreement and this is a national security matter, which Congress tends to defer to the executive or the Congress on these types of matters.
But with regard to your particular question, yes, I do believe that is a threat to the United States. Now the Supreme Court and its judgment spoke a
lot about the data collection. That indeed is a problem. We can talk about why.
But the flip side of that coin, my concern is the Chinese generating content that could affect -- that could, first of all, generate turmoil
with the United States socially, politically. We've seen some of that, but also can adjust, taint Americans views on different issues.
So if you can imagine tensions heating up between the United States and China on the issue of Taiwan, what would the algorithm, what would Beijing
do, via TikTok, to kind of address America's opinions and tilt them in their favor when it comes to Beijing's statements about their rights to
take Taiwan?
So it's concerns like that, both the data collection and the ability to influence American public opinion, which concerns me the most.
NEWTON: And the guarantees that the app itself, that the executives have said, look, the data is they don't manipulate it, they don't see it, you
know, it's stored in the United States. Does any of that really ring true to you in terms of actually really mitigating some of the concerns about
Chinese control?
ESPER: You know, lawmakers have reviewed this and experts have said there's -- the answers have not been compelling enough. And, of course, we know
that China passed a national security law years ago that said that they could take control, they could demand data, they could do any number of
things to any Chinese company to demand such access.
So that hangs out there as well. And, you know, the particular irony here, Paula, in one of your previous guests mentioned this, is the fact that
American apps are banned for the most part in China.
So, you know, we need to start dealing with China, recognizing it for the threat it is, and start demanding reciprocity from them.
I mean, particularly in light of what we've seen with the recent Chinese espionage cases that have become apparent, the Volt Typhoons, where we
found them embedded in our infrastructure. Those are deep national security concerns. And we would have never allowed Pravda to have access to the
American people, to put forward such propaganda that TikTok does during the Cold War.
So, look, I understand it affects a lot of the people. It does affect what, seven million people or so whose livelihoods depend on it. But I thought
the law brokered by Congress gave TikTok more than sufficient time to work out an alternative.
There is at least one bidder on the table willing to buy TikTok. And all the folks who've been facing this have had more enough time to move to a
different site.
So, look, I think this law is going to stand and people will come out in six months from now, 12 months from now. We won't think twice about it.
NEWTON: Do you want to wager, though, on whether or not President-elect Trump will be able to do anything about this?
ESPER: Well, he does have the option of a 90-day extension, but, of course, that's built on requirements that there be serious negotiations underway
and a number of things. Maybe he might try to get Congress to overturn the law, but I think that would be harder. There are a number of Republicans
who feel very strongly about this law to include his soon to be Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, his new National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz.
So I'm not sure he would have the votes in a -- in a -- certainly in the House where he's only got two or three Republican margin there to pull it
over the finish line.
So I don't know what his options really are, but we'll see. I'm sure he'll announce something soon.
NEWTON: Yes. I guess parsing the political consequences. Mr. Waltz has already said that they will deal with it. They'll find a solution. But, you
know, again, juxtaposed against incoming Secretary of State Marco Rubio saying that China poses the greatest threat to the United States. A lot to
look into there in the coming days and weeks.
Moving on to this ceasefire, all-important ceasefire, from a security perspective, when you look at this, and again, paramount for Israel is
their own security. When you look at it, is it a good deal?
[12:40:09]
ESPER: Well, it's good in the sense that we could get -- we could see 33 Israeli hostages come home soon. I'm very glad to see that. You know, the
hostage taking is immoral from the get-go that they -- that they -- Hamas would do this in addition to, you know, hiding behind civilian targets. So
that is a very good thing.
You know, with regard to the end state, that's been my concern is I'm not sure this deal last six weeks because nobody told us is telling us what
happens at the end of this six week period?
We know that both. Israel and Hamas comes at this from two different perspectives. Hamas wants to reassert control, if not governance, of Gaza
at the end of six weeks. And that is something Israel is absolutely opposed to.
And so how do they reconcile those two? Who's going to -- who's going to govern? Who's going to provide policing services? Who's going to provide
all other type of public services? And nobody wants to see Hamas back in charge.
And so I don't know how we get around that big issue. And that's just kind of, you know, the first big hurdle.
The bigger, longer-term hurdle is, what is the future of the Palestinian people? Is it a two-state solution where they live side by side with Israel
and peace and security and hopefully in a democratic state? But those are two major questions that have to be answered. The one is far more
immediate.
And until we find that out, it's hard to kind of judge the security apparatus because I think bottom line, either way, Israel is going to be
fighting a long-term insurgency here in Gaza against Hamas.
You can't defeat Hamas. It's an ideology. And an ideology committed to eradicating the Israeli state. But you can certainly continue to kind of
mow the lawn, as we say in counterinsurgency, and knock down its leaders, take down its forces, at the same time that there's some type of
responsible governance structure in the -- in the -- in Gaza.
NEWTON: Yes. I know the term mow the lawn well. And I've seen it up close and personal in many parts of the world.
I want to ask you though, as a former U.S. defense secretary, people say that the United States in this situation and going forward, should have a
lot more leverage when it comes to Israel in terms of what it means.
And to be frank, Antony Blinken has said this out loud. It is not in your own security interest to continue the bombardment in Gaza.
Where do you fall on that? Does the United States have the leverage to be able to say to Israel at times, enough, you're secure, we'll continue to
help you be secure, you need to stop?
ESPER: Well, you know, I think administrations from both sides of the party, over many years, have recognized Israel's right to self-defense. And
we know what happened, you know, October 7th, 2023 was horrific.
And so Israel has, you know, of course, done what they need to do with regard to not just Gaza, but Hezbollah, the Shia militia groups.
But that said, look, I -- clearly, I always have been saying I think they could have done more to bring humanitarian aid into their -- into Gaza and
maybe use less high tonnage bombs in certain regards. But it's hard to armchair quarterback that second guess at.
I actually think, you know, Donald Trump coming in, taking a much more aggressive approach, stronger approach, he's going to have or has already
proven he has more influence with Bibi Netanyahu than Joe Biden did.
And I think that's a reason, not the only reason, but a reason why we're seeing this agreement come together now in the final days of the Biden
administration.
NEWTON: Secretary Esper, we will leave it there, but a lot to talk about in the days and weeks to come. Appreciate it.
ESPER: Thank you.
NEWTON: And we will be right back with more news in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:45:07]
NEWTON: So who really is in charge of security at America's southern border? That is the question Senate Democrats posed just a short time ago
to Kristi Noem, Donald Trump's nominee to be Homeland Security Secretary.
Now Democrats want to know what role Trump's border czar, Tom Homan, will play in border security. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): Will he be giving orders directly to CBP, ICE, USCIS?
KRISTI NOEM, TRUMP'S HOMELAND SECURITY NOMINEE: Tom Homan has a direct line to the president. He is an advisor to the president, the border czar. I
obviously will be, if nominated and confirmed, and put into the position of being the Department of Homeland Security secretary and responsible for the
authorities that we have and the actions that we take.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Now it is worth noting that unlike Noem, Homan's position does not require Senate approval.
Now in recent weeks, Donald Trump has talked about getting the Panama Canal back in U.S. hands. Now during his Senate confirmation hearing, Donald
Trump's choice for Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, said China's influence over the canal may have violated an agreement over who should control that
crucial waterway.
Now CNN's Phil Mattingly went to Panama to take a closer look at Trump's fixation with the Panama Canal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the Panama Canal, a 51-mile corridor linking the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.
Its creation helped the United States become a global superpower.
MATTINGLY: Most people don't get access to this. But what you're standing on top of right now, it's a modern marvel.
It is an engineering miracle. Only twice in the history of the Panama Canal has transit actually stopped. It's that invaluable to world trade, to the
world economy, to geopolitics in general.
It also underscores why any president, President-Elect Trump being one of them, cares so deeply about its operations.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Now, Trump's interest in the Panama Canal, it makes a lot of sense. It's four percent of global shipping. That's what comes
through here on an annual basis, 40 percent of U.S. containers come through this waterway.
But what people here unequivocally do not understand is why, after 25 years of smooth operations under Panama's control, all of a sudden, Trump is
threatening to take it back and refusing to rule out using military force to do so.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Panama Canal is a disgrace.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): He's railed against how the canal is being run and China's growing influence around the waterway.
TRUMP: They charge more for our ships than they charge for ships of other countries. They charge more for our navy than they charge for navies of
other countries. They laugh at us because they think we're stupid, but we're not stupid anymore.
China's at both ends of the Panama Canal. China is running the Panama Canal.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): I asked the man who was in charge of the canal for seven years, Jorge Luis Quijano, about those claims.
MATTINGLY: Does the canal charge U.S. ships more than others?
JORGE LUIS QUIJANO, FORMER PANAMA CANAL ADMINISTRATOR: No.
MATTINGLY: Does the canal charge the U.S. Navy more than others?
QUIJANO: No.
MATTINGLY: Are there Chinese troops operating in the canal?
QUIJANO: No.
MATTINGLY: Does Beijing or the Chinese Communist Party operate the canal?
QUIJANO: Definitely no.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Trump's current Panama fixation has left officials here perplexed and frustrated, but also cognizant of the former real estate
magnate's roots in the country, long before his turn to politics.
TRUMP: Well, my interest in Panama really began when we had the Miss Universe contest in Panama, which I own. I own the Miss Universe. And it
was one of the most successful contests we've ever had.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Not all of his business dealings in Panama have been a success.
MATTINGLY: There's a complicating factor for Panamanian officials trying to figure out what the president-elect actually wants here. And that starts
right here, because this building, this building is the tallest building in Central America. And it is a building that used to be known as the Trump
International Tower and Hotel, also home of the Trump Ocean Club. Now it is neither.
[12:50:06]
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The gleaming 70-floor resort marked Trump's first international hotel venture, a massive project, mired by mountains of
litigation and confrontation that led to the removal of Trump's name from the property, halfway through his first term in the White House.
As for Trump's attack on the terrible deal that set in motion the U.S. handover of the canal and its surrounding zone to Panama, that's rooted in
an even longer standing preoccupation.
TRUMP: Jimmy Carter gave the Panama Canal away for nothing -- zero. In other words, they said, we want the canal. He said, oh, OK. Even though we
spent the equivalent of many billions of dollars to build it.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Now, Trump is calling for Panama to reduce the tolls and rates U.S. ships pay to transit the canal, or else.
ILYA ESPINO DE MAROTTA, DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR OF THE CANAL: That was one of our dredges working on it.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): I put that to Ilya Espino de Marotta, deputy administrator of the canal.
MATTINGLY: You know, one of the things that you hear from people in the United States is, well, just -- all Trump wants is you just cut the rates a
little bit for U.S. ships or make some adjustments there just for U.S. ships.
Is that a plausible option?
DE MAROTTA: It's not a possible option.
MATTINGLY: Why not?
DE MAROTTA: Because of the treaties.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The same treaties Trump rails against mandate equal treatment of all vessels. No U.S. carve-outs.
Trump has also ignored that the canal today is far bigger than the one handed over by the United States.
MATTINGLY: There was an expansion.
DE MAROTTA: Yes.
MATTINGLY: The U.S. government played what role in the expanded version?
DE MAROTTA: OK. As far as -- financially, none.
MATTINGLY: More than half of the revenue that comes in from the Panama Canal doesn't come in through the one that the United States was integral
in building. It comes in through the expansion.
DE MAROTTA: That's right.
This is the Atlantic side.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Marotta led the massive $5.2 billion project, which dramatically expanded the size of cargo ships that can traverse the canal.
MATTINGLY: So when President-Elect Trump says he's taking -- he wants to take the canal back, do you guys get to keep the one you did?
QUIJANO: No, no, no. We get -- we get to keep everything.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Phil Mattingly, at the Panama Canal, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Now, Elon Musk's SpaceX put on a show for some in the Caribbean, but not intentionally. We'll tell you about a very eventful day for SpaceX.
That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[12:55:04]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that? Is that (INAUDIBLE). It's so cool. A meteor rain?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: That is a SpaceX Starship, at least it used to be.
People on the Turks and Caicos Islands witnessed burning fragments of the unmanned spacecraft falling from the sky over the Caribbean. Now, it is
pretty, but the debris briefly delayed commercial airline flights in Florida. Thankfully, there were no incidents.
SpaceX said Starship suffered a, quote, rapid unscheduled disassembly shortly after launch. That's the company's way of saying, yep, it exploded.
It wasn't all bad news though for SpaceX. The booster that launched Starship safely returned to Earth and it was caught by the tower in what
SpaceX calls a chopstick catch. Well, believe me that was spectacular to watch as we were watching it the other day.
That does it for this hour of ONE WORLD. I'm Paula Newton. I'll be back after a quick break with "AMANPOUR."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
