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Florida Reports 10K New Cases, 90 Deaths Today; NYT Investigation: Key Decisions About Reopening Economy Made By White House Aides Instead Of Doctors, Scientists; Rep. John Lewis, Titan Of Civil Rights, Dies At Age 80; CDC Forecasts 157,000-Plus U.S. COVID-19 Deaths By August 8; CNN Reports Trump Made 41 False Claims About COVID-19 In Four Weeks. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 18, 2020 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. This is a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM. And we begin with breaking news tonight of the nation's fight against the coronavirus pandemic.

The World Health Organization now reporting a record number of new coronavirus cases over the past 24 hours, nearly 260,000. This, as the U.S. has now reported more than 70,000 new daily cases of coronavirus for each of the past two days. The rise in cases being fuelled by two states, in particular. We're talking about Florida and Texas. In Florida, ICUs in Miami-Dade County right now are at 122 percent capacity, while for a fifth day in a row, Texas is reporting over 10,000 new cases of the coronavirus.

Also tonight, the CDC is out with a dire new prediction that by August 8th - August 8th - at least 157,000 Americans will have lost their lives to the coronavirus. That would mean another 18,000 Americans would die over the next three weeks alone.

We're also following a very troubling new report in "The New York Times". It details how the President and his administration rushed to shift responsibility to states from the federal government, a move that could be to blame for the surge in new cases in deaths across 37 states right now.

If you needed a sign that this is a crisis that is not going away, consider the death toll. More than 900 Americans have died each day this past week since Tuesday, and there is no suggestion in the data that those numbers will improve anytime soon.

I want to go straight to the epicenter of the crisis here in the United States right now. CNN's Rosa Flores is joining us live from Miami.

Rosa, first of all, tell us more about the ICU situation where you are in Miami. ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the ICU capacity here in Miami-

Dade County is at 122 percent. The goal for the county is not to exceed 70 percent. While we've been reporting about it, they've exceeded more than 100 percent for the past few days. Here are the numbers.

In Miami-Dade County right now, there are 484 COVID-19 patients and 396 beds available. The good news is that the county says that they have more than 400 beds that they can convert into ICUs. As for the ventilator use, it's up 64 percent in the past two weeks.

And I wish I could give you a full report on the positivity rate here in Miami-Dade County like I do every day, but today, when I went looking for the data, it was gone. It was omitted. I asked the county about this discrepancy, and here's what the county said.

They sent us a statement saying the following, quote, "County officials are meeting with state DOH - Department of Health - statisticians on Monday to go over discrepancies in the way the state and county collect and report testing data. Once all agree on the appropriate parameters, Miami-Dade County will be updating the daily dashboard to ensure as much of an accurate measure as is statistically possible."

Look, Florida has had multiple issues with data transparency. Now, apparently, a quality of data issue as well. What I can tell you about the positive rate, yesterday, it was 27 percent. The goal for the county was not to exceed 10 percent. Well, they have exceeded 22 percent, Wolf, for the past 14 days.

Now, right now, I'm going back and forth with the county asking them about some data regarding the positivity rate that they're releasing. They're just not explaining exactly what it is. Now, despite all these staggering statistics, Wolf, if you would have listened to the entire press conference by Governor Ron DeSantis this afternoon, you would have walked away thinking that Florida has it all under control.

Wolf.

BLITZER: It was interesting, Rosa, Governor DeSantis also said today he's not going to be prosecuting people for not wearing masks. So where does that leave the policy statewide?

FLORES: Governor Ron DeSantis from the get-go has recommended that masks be worn, but he has been very clear that he is not going to mandate masks.

Now, I asked him this question directly just this past week during a roundtable with the mayors here in Miami-Dade County because this entire roundtable, Wolf, was about a unified message about all of these mayors and the Governor coming together here in the epicenter of this crisis in the State of Florida. And so, at the end, he said in his remarks that it was time for action.

[19:05:00]

So I asked the Governor, Governor, if this is all about a unified message and you're asking for action, are you ready to take action and actually mandate a mask statewide? And he said, no, Wolf, that he is recommending that people here in Miami-Dade County follow what the mayors here are recommending, which is masks.

And there is a mask mandate here and - here in Miami - in the city of Miami now. There is going to be a fine. There's going to be no more warnings. The first offense is going to give you a $50 fine. But again, the Governor, digging in his heels, saying he is not going to mandate masks to be worn statewide. Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Rosa, thank you. Rosa Flores in Miami for us.

Let's go next door to Miami Beach where a new curfew begins in the famous South Beach area in less than one hour. That's at 8:00 p.m. Eastern here on the East Coast. The Mayor, Dan Gelber, calls Miami Beach the epicenter of the epicenter for the virus at the moment. He's joining us now live.

Mayor, thank you so much for joining us. Businesses in South Beach, for example, they'll have to close by the top of the hour, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Does this curfew, from your perspective, go far enough in considering just how bad things are in your area right now?

MAYOR DAN GELBER (D), MIAMI BEACH, FL: Well, we're going to have to see because right now we do not have a handle on this at all. It has a handle on us really. And so, an 8:00 p.m. curfew, we've got obviously a mask order. We stopped all short-term rentals because we thought there were a lot of parties going on there in the entire city.

So we've really, I think, tried to take measures that we hope will work. But I'm not sure that they will. And we're looking at the data very carefully. All the mayors and commissions and managers are obviously very troubled, and we're all consulting with one another to try to figure out what the next step will be that will help us tempt this down and reduce the trajectory.

BLITZER: How do you stop groups of partiers, Mayor, from gathers, let's say, at people's homes or out on boats?

GELBER: It's very hard. You're not supposed to be in a group of more than 10. So we can at least - we see it out there, we can. But we can't go knocking on people's doors. We can only try to create a sense of sort of communal urgency here. And of course, that's hard to do because so many people in all the communities in our nation seem to be in conflict about how serious this is and the sense of urgency that I think we must have.

BLITZER: As you heard from Rosa's report, Miami-Dade County's own data shows intensive care units are well over capacity right now. They're 122 percent. But the Mayor of Miami-Dade County said Friday they have not reached, what he calls, absolute capacity. I was speaking with him on Friday.

How sure are you, Mayor, that hospitals in Miami Beach - let's talk about your area - will be able to handle this clearly growing surge in cases?

GELBER: Well, I don't - I don't limit it to Miami Beach because the interaction around our county is so great. Hundreds of thousands come here. We send our residents there. We know that we're all one community.

We're worried, obviously, about it. But the other thing that we have to be concerned about is - let's say we can double our ventilators and double our ICUs. That means that at some point, the level of people coming into the system is so great that the human suffering that's coming is going to be doubled as well, and the deaths and the folks in ICU. And that has to be something we're concerned about.

We have to stop people from getting this and to - and help them sort of govern their interactions, and we have to do it by messaging. And honestly, I was at that meeting with the Governor where he was talking about unity, and I asked him to do a mask order statewide because a lot of people will listen to him.

And he can't just recommend a mask. He has to tell them that they must do it. And I think a lot of people will listen if he does, just like I think if President Trump does the same thing, some of his folks who he leads and listen to him will do the same thing. We don't have that going on right now, and it's really terrible.

BLITZER: Was that the last time you spoke with Governor DeSantis? How would you describe the level of communication that you've had with the Governor?

GELBER: Well, it's interesting. He's available. I don't want to - we're different parties, but he's been available, and he's been good at sort of trying to move resources around. But what we need now is leadership.

I was in a meeting yesterday with dozens of mayors, and the commissioners and managers locally are all trying to get a handle on this and trying to figure out what to do. And we don't even have our own health departments. We have to create sort of health teams to advise us. Nowhere in the mix is the Governor recommending what to close. And obviously, the President isn't. In fact, they've muzzled the CDC.

So they've not only pushed the decisions to the governors, they've pushed them down to local mayors and commissions, and they're not even helping us make those decisions. It's uncanny to me that this is the way we're going about this pandemic and without any kind of leadership from the state or federal level on what we need to do.

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BLITZER: Yes, that's how significant a lack of leadership. The Governor of Florida also defended keeping gyms in the state open. He did so on Friday. And I want to show you and our viewers his explanation. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): In terms of the gyms, we've not had a lot of problems with that. And so that's not something that I'm going to close, partially because, if you look, you talk to any physician, particularly to people that are under 50, if you're in good shape, you have a very, very low likelihood of ending up in significant condition as a result of the coronavirus. I mean, the people that they're seeing in there have overwhelmingly uncontrolled co-morbidities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. So, first of all, what's the status of gyms in Miami Beach, and what's your reaction to that explanation from the Governor?

GELBER: Our county mayor has left. If you have a mask in a gym, it's fine, but you must have a mask. And if you don't, you've got to be outside the gym.

Here's what's going on, and it's pretty obvious. When we talk about opening things, the Governor and the President are all for it. They send us mandates about opening up schools. But when it comes to closing things, which is the tough medicine we're asking people to follow and making sacrifices by wearing masks, it's like their voices are non-existent. And that's - we need to all be together like we are in a hurricane, telling everybody to do the same thing.

And right now, the mixed messages, it's really true. I get emails all day long from people who just don't want to do any of this stuff and don't think they need a mask and don't - and are complaining about everything we're trying to close, when the truth of the matter is it's not really my city that's the epicenter of the epicenter.

It's Miami-Dade County where obviously most of the plurality of positive cases are happening in the State of Florida. And we've all - locally, we've all figured out how to get along no matter our party or no matter our prior differences. But we have really no help on leadership from the state or federal level. And that's what I really would implore the Governor and the President to do.

BLITZER: Yes. They - you need leadership and you need it quickly because the numbers are getting worse and worse. Mayor Gelber, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck.

GELBER: Thanks. Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Let's widen our view from just Florida right now. Take a look at the coronavirus epidemic nationally. CNN's Jeremy Diamond is joining us from the White House right now.

Jeremy, there is new investigative reporting out today that illuminates how the President and his close aides made some very important decisions about this clearly spreading virus and public safety. Tell our viewers, first of all, what you're learning.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, so much of what we are seeing today across the country in terms of the surging numbers of cases, the delays in people getting their test results back, so much of this goes back to some key decisions that were made at the White House by the White House Chief of Staff and other aides in mid-April.

That was around the time when President Trump was already growing quite impatient with the lockdown situation in the United States and in particular the economic effect that it was having in the extent to which it could damage his political chances in November.

But what we are now learning through this new "New York Times" reporting is that Dr. Deborah Birx, who's one of those figures who is really central to some of these decisions, in particular because Dr. Birx who has been looking at the modeling of this virus, she believed that the United States in mid-April was on track to be an Italy, which means seeing this surge in cases, but then going down really quite dramatically. Of course, now we know, Wolf, that that is not the case at all. The United States has been an outlier, not just of Italy but of other countries in Europe and in most of the world.

But according to "The Times," Dr. Birx was, quote, "the chief evangelist" for this view that the threat of the virus was fading away, giving the White House the confidence essentially to push forward with this reopening message. But what the modeling that Dr. Birx was looking at didn't take into account was the extent to which the President's new focus on reopening instead of focusing on the mitigation efforts that Americans and governors should be implementing in their states, the extent to which that would really be counterproductive to the modeling in the way that it was predicted. Meaning that the cases were going to not go down to the same extent, but instead, this plateau at a fairly high level that we have seen for several months before this resent surge.

Another thing in this report, Wolf, is that it shows that White House aides realized in June that this was not actually the situation and that cases were beginning to surge in the south. But the thing is, Wolf, the President's rhetoric didn't reflect that reality and that understanding by White House officials even when they recognized in June that the situation was not as good as they had once anticipated. The President, we have seen him, even in recent weeks, Wolf, continue to downplay the virus and the threat of the virus and continue to go against the science. Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes. The U.S. now approaching 140,000 confirmed coronavirus deaths over the past five months.

[19:15:00]

On a different subject, Jeremy, the President this afternoon acknowledging and responding to the death of long-time Congressman, John Lewis. Tell our viewers what he said and why maybe the timing of his comments became an issue.

DIAMOND: Well, Wolf, it took more than 40 tweets from the President in a round of golf this morning with his friend, Senator Lindsey Graham, before the President actually went out and put out this perfunctory tweet about the passing of Congressman John Lewis, the civil rights icon.

And you can see it there on your screen where the President says, "Saddened to hear the news of civil rights hero John Lewis passing," saying that he sends his prayers to Congressman John Lewis, who's now passed away, and his family.

Again, a pretty perfunctory tweet from the President, and it took more than 14 hours for the President to actually issue that tweet. Also, notably, Wolf, the Vice President had actually put out a statement before the President, a quite lengthier one, which is pretty rare. Usual you see the Vice President, particularly Vice President Mike Pence, giving a lot of deference to the President, waiting to see what he does before acting on his own.

BLITZER: Jeremy Diamond reporting from the White House. Thanks very much. We'll get back to you.

And as we mentioned, yesterday we lost a man who was a giant, not just in the civil rights movement but really in the history of our nation. John Lewis passed away at the age of 80. In those years, he carved a legacy that was unequal. At just 23 years old, he spoke at the march on Washington. He was known as one of the big six civil rights leaders. His impact grew as a congressman, serving 33 years in the U.S. House of Representatives.

I'll have much more on John Lewis later tonight here in THE SITUATION ROOM" among others. I'll speak with Martin Luther King III and later with Senator Cory Booker. We're following all of this reaction very closely.

We're going to also have much more on the dire warnings coming in right now from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which now predicts that at least 18,000 - 18,000 more Americans could lose their lives to the coronavirus in the coming three weeks. Three weeks. Our doctors, they're standing by for analysis.

[19:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A new and chilling prediction from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. By August 8th, at least 157,000 Americans will have lost their fight against the coronavirus. That's another 18,000 American deaths over the next three weeks alone.

Joining us now to discuss, emergency medicine doctor Esther Choo from Oregon Health and Science University, and CNN Medical Analyst, Dr. Seema Yasmin, Former Disease Detective over at the CDC.

Dr. Yasmin, these are huge numbers. Is it time for some of these hotspots across the U.S., Florida, Texas, other places, to seriously consider statewide new stay-at-home orders or other serious measures?

DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, EPIDEMIOLOGIST & FORMER CDC DISEASE DETECTIVE: It absolutely is. And in some cases, it's overdue, Wolf. What we are seeing is a crisis that's spiraling out of control. When we say that things were bad back in April, things are twice as bad now. Back then, we were seeing about 30,000 to 36,000 Americans newly infected every day. Now we're seeing upwards of 65,000 or 75,000 Americans infected with COVID-19 every day.

In states like Florida, for the last four days in a row, the state has been breaking records for how many Floridians are dying. So it's high time that state officials who've really been left in the lurch by the federal government, but it's high time that they institute some of these lockdowns and mask mandates.

Unfortunately, what we're seeing is continued politicization of the public health and no guidance and really mixed messaging for people whose lives are being put at stake by these ineffective and weak leaders.

BLITZER: Dr. Choo, what do you think?

DR. ESTHER CHOO, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN & PROFESSOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, OREGON HEALTH AND SCIENCE UNIVERSITY: Yes. I completely agree with Dr. Yasmin. I mean, looking from the hospital and the health care perspective, we're reaching critical levels at hospitals and intensive care units. You're looking at 100 percent capacity exceeded in Arizona, in Florida. Texas is very close. Georgia is falling, not quite far behind.

As we exceed capacity - and mind you, that's expanded capacity because we - some of these states where coronavirus hit late, we prepared. We spent these months watching other states and making plans for expanding our intensive care unit capacity. So, even with that preparation, they are maxed out. And when it's that bad, things start to break down, healthcare workers will get sick. And if you have a downstream problem, the fix needs to be upstream. So we need to intervene for those states certainly, and there are many other states headed in that direction as well.

BLITZER: I want guidance from both of you on this new guidance that's coming out of the CDC.

Dr. Choo, let me start with you. They're saying now that someone who has tested positive for COVID-19 and has symptoms may discontinue isolation 10 days after the symptoms first appeared so long as 24 hours have passed since the last fever without the use of fever- reducing medications. What do you think? Does that offer enough time for a person to be no longer contagious?

CHOO: Yes. I mean, what we're learning is that coronavirus has a very variable course. And very early on, we kind of thought it was just cough and fever. And now we're finding that symptoms can go on for a longer period of time, that average symptoms are longer than we thought, and that some people present very atypically.

So, really, having a repeat test as confirmation that you're no longer shedding virus is a much safer route, but of course, we're in this setting where we have extreme limitation of testing still, seven months into it. So I think we may have to make the pragmatic decision to just go by estimated days, but certainly we should wait for symptomatology to improve.

BLITZER: Yes. I think that would be - you got to err on the side of caution.

[19:25:00]

Dr. Yasmin, what do you think?

YASMIN: I am trying to not continue to be shocked that testing still isn't where it's at, Wolf, because it's still stunning to me that seven months into this crisis, America is still only doing about half the number of tests they it needs to do. So we heard the U.S. testing czar say that people who test negative, they shouldn't really be going back to get an additional test.

First off, we don't know yet whether re-infection is possible or not. We just don't have the evidence yet to back that up. But on the other hand, we just haven't fixed that initial testing. So in Texas, Arizona, other hotspots, the surges are so high with the need for testing that people are waiting nine, 10 hours to get tested, and then commercial laboratories are telling us that the average wait for test results to get back to people, it's now eight, nine, or 10 days.

And anything beyond three really hampers our ability to get a handle on an epidemic. So we still need to fix testing. We are still doing about 700,000 tests a day when the U.S. needs to be doing at least 2.1 million tests every day.

BLITZER: Well, then it's really important, Dr. Choo. Why is it still taking eight weeks to get a test, sometimes even - you can't even get a test in certain places, but then you have to wait seven, eight, nine days to get the results? In Europe and other places, they get the results in two, three days.

CHOO: This is so frustrating. I mean, testing was our first failure. It continues to be our failure. I have a feeling it will be our last failure. Testing is many different things. It's, of course, the swab, but it's also getting the swabs to the testing facilities. It's the chemical reagents. And it's the workforce, not only to run the tests but to report them back to health facilities and to individuals.

And we lack resources at every level. At every stage where you need something for testing, we don't have enough. And so what's really happened - and the reason there's so much variability in whether or not you can get a test, how long it takes to wait to get that test and when you get your results is because it's become a very competitive process.

So, right now, the only way to really incentivize some of these labs to turn around tests faster is to throw money at them. So, pay double the usual rate. And of course, without central organization of that process, it's just - it's just a setup for huge inequities.

So there are people who tell us, oh, I just walked in, I got the test, and I found out the next day. And that is happening in some places. And then there's other places where people go in and they can't even get the test done, to begin with, because there are still a lot of stringent test criteria there.

Testing bleeds into everything else. You can imagine, if you're at a hospital where there's a shortage of PPE and they need to decide whether they're going to go full PPE in order to go into, say, an emergency surgery, to not have a rapid turnaround test in an hour or two, the window in which you need to go to surgery, it means that you have to waste a whole bunch of PPE, which kind of affects the care of everyone in that facility and the safety of those healthcare workers. So, testing really bleeds into every other issue we have here in this pandemic.

BLITZER: It's certainly so critical. Dr. Esther Choo, Dr. Seema Yasmin, thanks to both of you for joining us. We're, of course, always grateful to both of you.

We're going to have much more on the coronavirus pandemic coming up here in our special SITUATION ROOM. But we're also going to take a closer look at the legacy of the late Congressman and civil rights icon, John Lewis. The son of Martin Luther King, Jr., he's standing by live. Martin Luther King III, we'll discuss when we come back.

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[19:33:13]

BLITZER: We will have much more on all the late breaking developments of the coronavirus pandemic that's coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

But also tonight, we want to honor a truly remarkable man, the legacy of a Civil Rights hero, John Lewis. He unfortunately died yesterday at the age of 80.

Today, our nation is grieving his loss. I'm joined now by global human rights leader, Martin Luther King III. The son of the Civil Rights icon, Martin Luther King, Jr.

Martin, thanks so much for joining us. Tell us what John Lewis meant to your father, your family, what he meant to you?

MARTIN LUTHER KING III, INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: You know, John Lewis -- and thank you so much for the opportunity to remember this incredibly great human being who personified and was known as the conscience of the Congress, but maybe even the conscious of our nation.

He and my father met at an early age when he was about 18 years old and he had written letters to my dad (inaudible) over the years as a person and then wrote to dad and dad brought him to Montgomery, when it was about to go to college, and affectionately referred to him as the Boy From Troy, as John Lewis shared.

And of course, later on, they became colleagues in the struggle, John Lewis became the head of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and as we know, is the last speaker, who was one of the Great Six organizations that organized the march in Washington, who was one of the last ones to live who no longer is with us.

And so this is a sad time for our nation. But Congressman Lewis would want us to organize, to mobilize to register and to vote, he would want us to restore the Voting Rights Act. And maybe this is the time that this really can happen.

His colleagues who claim they supported him, those over on the other side of the aisle, who he tried to build relationships with could support him and renew the Voting Rights Act so that no one's vote is encumbered. Everyone has the right to vote, and there's no voter suppression in our nation.

[19:35:24]

BLITZER: Yes, I spoke with him on several occasions over the years and we spoke on that sensitive issue over the years. We're going to play some of that later here in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Congressman Lewis, Martin was, as you point out, the last living speaker from that 1963 march on Washington, where your father gave his famous "I Have a Dream" speech. I want to play a portion of Congressman Lewis's speech that day when he was a very young man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D-GA): We leave the march with the spirit of love and with the spirit of dignity that we have shown here today. We must say a wake up. Wake up for we cannot stop, and we will not and cannot be patient.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He spoke about the spirit of love, the spirit of dignity. Tell us how you saw his life.

KING: You know, that is what he personified throughout his life. As a young man when he came to be engaged with the activities of non- violence, being inspired by the leadership of my father, I certainly am inspired by his leadership.

And throughout his life, he carried forth this kind of philosophy. He never saw a group of young people that he didn't stop and engage and talk about the importance to get involved, to make our nation what it ought to be.

And so he was -- he had an incredible energy. I mean, he just could go all day and all night, but it was always positive. That's the most significant attribute that I can think of.

John Lewis always approached people in a positive way. If he ever was negative, it was constructive criticism. It never was destructive criticism.

Unfortunately, we're living at a time where some provide destructive criticism, and we need more constructive which is instructive, which will lead us to a higher level. BLITZER: Martin Luther King III. Martin, thanks so much for joining

us. I really appreciate it.

KING: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: And a quick programming note to our viewers. Tomorrow night, United Shades of America with Kamau Bell is back.

In this week's episode, he'll examine how the idea of white supremacy shapes American laws, language and societies to this very day. There it is. Tomorrow night, 10:00 p.m. Eastern right after our SPECIAL SITUATION ROOM tomorrow night.

Coming up, as we're dealing with a pandemic that is killing thousands of Americans, a new poll shows that an increasing number of Americans don't trust what the President of the United States is now saying about the coronavirus.

So how is that affecting the national response to the pandemic?

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[19:42:07]

BLITZER: During a pandemic, information can certainly mean the difference between life and death and that's why it should be of such concern that a CNN fact check found President Trump made 41 false claims about coronavirus in the four weeks from June 8 to July 5.

This could explain why a staggering 64 percent of Americans trust what the President says about the pandemic, either not so much or not at all, that according to a new ABC News/Washington Post poll.

So what does it mean for the response to a public health crisis when people don't trust the leaders handling the crisis?

I'm joined now by the former Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Obama, Kathleen Sebelius, as well as the historian, John Barry. He's the author of an amazing book, "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History." Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Secretary Sebelius. It's not just that the President lacks credibility on the pandemic. It's also that he seems to lack interest at least over these past few weeks.

He hasn't attended a Coronavirus Taskforce meeting since around April. What's your reaction to all of this?

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, FORMER HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, unfortunately, Wolf, the American public is paying the price of total vacuum from national leadership. And this has been a consistent message from the President.

He didn't want to admit there was a virus. He didn't pay attention to the virus. He didn't mobilize the national government. In mid-March -- mid-March -- he said, I have absolutely no responsibility. I take no responsibility when he was quizzed about testing. That was the day he declared a national emergency.

And since mid-April, he's been trying to put the responsibility someplace else. It's up to governors, it's up to mayors. It's up to somebody. It's up to individuals. It's up to schools. It's up --

We have now suffered more loss of life than any developed country. We are seeing the first wave of this terrible virus continue to ricochet around the country. We are way behind the virus in terms of even knowing what the infection rate is likely to be.

We don't have contact tracing. We don't have testing. These are issues we've been talking about for months and months. And unfortunately, the President is still not interested in taking a leadership role, and we're all paying the price for that.

BLITZER: You know, John, back in 2017, you wrote in your really important book about the 1918 pandemic, you wrote this, and I'll put it up on the screen, "The most important lesson from 1918 is to tell the truth, though, that idea is incorporated into every preparedness plan. I know its actual implementation will depend on the character and leadership of the people in charge when a crisis erupts."

So -- and john, you also pointed out that American public health officials lie to keep morale up back in 1918. Do you see parallels with what's going on today? Especially what we're hearing from the White House?

[19:45:20]

JOHN BARRY, HISTORIAN: Well, of course, it's a parallel. Of course, the motivation was quite different in 1918. We're in the middle of a war. And there was a concern in the White House, I think it was a serious mistake.

But that if they say said anything negative about any subject that would hurt morale and hurt the war effort. So at least that's a legitimate judgment to make, even though I don't agree with it and ended up killing a lot of people.

Right now, what you have is someone's political self-interest. It is not -- the irony is that the way to get the economy going is to do this thing right.

People need to understand how bad really our situation is. Italy, formerly the poster child for devastation by this virus has roughly 200 cases a day. Its population is triple Florida, which is over 10,000 cases a day.

If Florida had 65 cases a day, which would be the per capita appropriate number of comparable Italy, then the economy would be operating at 100 percent. Everybody wouldn't even be debating going back to school or playing football or any of those things.

So had we done it right the first time, we would be, you know, I don't know that we'd be thriving, but we'd be well on our way to a recovery right now.

And right now it is out of control in certain parts of the country, dangerously out of control.

BLITZER: Yes, especially in Florida and Texas and other places. You know, Secretary Sebelius, we've seen how quickly President Trump can mobilize the Federal government when it comes to protecting statues, clearing out protesters, but we still have hospital workers in various parts of the country right now, they are all still begging for the Federal government to have the same sense of urgency, for example, to distribute, PPE. Is this about priorities? Is it bureaucracy? What is it?

SEBELIUS: I wish I could answer that question, Wolf. I have absolutely no idea.

The idea that Homeland Security is sending unnamed troops -- fully mobilized troops into Portland, Oregon, scooping peaceful protesters off the street, throwing them into unmarked vans, carting them away, refusing to say who they are, and they're not distributing personal protective equipment in the midst of a pandemic.

I really have no idea what it is that the White House thinks they are going to accomplish by this. We still have big gaps in protective equipment.

We have parents and teachers and kids who are desperate to go back to school. Nobody doesn't want to go back to school.

But the notion that we would put children at risk and their parents and their grandparents is pretty terrifying. And yet the only thing the President wants to do is threaten schools with withholding funds.

Schools need more money if they're going to put children in smaller groups. They need more personnel to have with classrooms. They need more cleaning equipment, more PPE.

And Mitch McConnell, on his desk, Senator McConnell, the Majority Leader of the Senate has been holding a bill for two months with aid to cities and states. I have no idea what the priority of this President is.

But John is absolutely right. The economy will never start. The economy won't get going unless we get a handle on the virus.

BLITZER: Very quickly, John, because we are out of time. Remind our viewers how many people worldwide died from the pandemic back in 1918. And what do you assess it is going to happen this time. Right now we're approaching -- what -- 600,000 confirmed deaths worldwide.

BARRY: Well, fortunately, this virus is nowhere near as lethal as 1918. In 1918, it killed between 50 million and 100 million people in a world much less population. If you adjust for population, it would equal 200 million to 400 million people today.

Even in a worst case, we're not looking at those kinds of numbers, but we're certainly, certainly looking in the millions and very possibly in the tens of millions depending on when we get vaccines and when we get very therapeutic drugs.

BLITZER: Yes, this is by no means over, this crisis. John Barry, thank you very much. Thanks for writing this important book. Kathleen Sebelius, as usual, thanks to you as well.

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BLITZER: And as Secretary Sebelius mentioned, a crisis unfolding in Portland, Oregon. Right now, the city's Attorney General is demanding an investigation after a video surfaced online that show masked and camouflaged Federal agents, detaining protesters.

We'll be right back.

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BLITZER: Oregon's Attorney General is suing the Department of Homeland Security here in Washington to stop what is described as armed detainments of peaceful protesters in Portland.

Federal agents in generic camouflage gear who failed to identify themselves are snatching up protesters, throwing them in the back of unmarked rental cars.

CNN's Josh Campbell is joining us from Portland right now. So what's going on, Josh? What are you hearing?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf, we are continuing to see the showdown between protesters and local officials and Federal officials. This is now going on for over 50 days every night in this location where I'm at right now. There have been protests, some of them turning very violently.

Let me just give you a sense of what's taking place. Over here across the street, you can see Wolf, this fencing that has been up. This is around this Federal Square.

Every night this fence is torn down by some of the protesters that gather here and then in the daytime, the Federal government will come and then put it back up.

What's changed overnight, something that we haven't seen here in this area is what's behind me, Wolf. They have reinforced steel now, this fencing that's outside of the Federal Building, you can see behind me there's a lot of graffiti.

This is a site of some of that defacing that we've seen. This is an area where this is often turned to destruction. Now, as a result of this, some of the protesters, those who have turned violent we are told by law enforcement have been the subject of investigation.

They've been going out trying to identify the agitators. Now, that has led to this very dramatic video that you mentioned that turned viral in social media, where you have a person who was approached by heavily armed men in tactical uniforms and is then taken to an unmarked van and taken away.

And I can tell you several hours went by we were trying to get information from Federal officials about who these officers were, we finally learned that they were from U.S. Customs and Border Protection. They were telling us that this individual was suspected of being involved in some type of criminal activity.

The one thing we don't know yet, Wolf is what happened to that person. I've reached out to CBP, it's now been over 24 hours. They have not told us whether the person was charged or whether he was released. And it's that viral veteran video that has been so controversial calling officials here causing them to sue the Department of Homeland Security over this Have these heavily armed officers taking people in the middle of the night and arresting them.

And one piece of new information, Wolf, we're learning, the top Federal prosecutor here in Oregon is also calling for an independent Inspector General investigation into his own Federal agents that work with him based on some of these, those reports in this video that we've seen.

He, too, is troubled about these activities. Again, the police say law enforcement says that they're conducting lawful investigations.

A lot of people here in the community want answers, but this standoff continues, Wolf, between, again, local officials and some of these protesters and the Federal government.

Finally, we know President Trump has continued to use this as a political issue talking about surging resources into Portland, talking about the failed leadership here that's allowed these protests to continue.

He is really using this as a political football. He has his own officials at the Department of Homeland Security in line. They continue to attack local officials. City officials here tell us that they want the Federal government to leave so they can then address the protesters.

A very tenuous situation that continues here in Portland and will likely continue tonight -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, we'll stay in touch with you, Josh. Thank you very much. We'll have a bunch more of our coronavirus coverage right after this.

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