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The Situation Room
President Trump Holds White House Press Briefing; Interview With National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Dr. Anthony Fauci; Fauci Says, Dire Projection Could be Nudge for Americans to Wear Masks; Trump Angrily Denies Report He Called Wounded and Dead U.S. Service Members Losers and Suckers; Biden Signals Major Shift with New Campaign Tactics. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired September 04, 2020 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That doesn't mean I don't respect him. I respected him, but I really disagreed with him on a lot of things, and I think I was right.
I think time has proven me right to a large extent.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Thank you, Mr. President.
Earlier in the statement that you read before questions, you spoke about how you believe that we're, as you put it, rounding the corner on the coronavirus pandemic.
TRUMP: I do believe that, yes.
QUESTION: And you said that yesterday as well.
And I think everybody would love to see the pandemic come to an end. There's no doubt about that.
But I wanted to ask you about a forecast that has come out from the IHME at the University of Washington. And they are forecasting, by January the 1st of next year, that we'll have 410,000 American deaths from coronavirus, which is 225,000 from where we are right now.
So, can you explain how you see us rounding the corner, based upon that projection?
TRUMP: If I didn't close up our country, if I didn't stop China, highly infected, from coming in, if I didn't stop Europe from coming in far sooner than anybody else, including Dr. Fauci and others wanted to -- and Dr. Fauci was very nice.
He said, President Trump made a great decision.
We would have far more than that. But, maybe even more importantly, if I didn't close up, we would have, instead of the number that you mentioned or whatever it may be -- we're about 180 -- we would have perhaps 1.5 or two million deaths right now, if I went a different direction, which some people wanted me to do, and I decided not to do it.
We'd have two million deaths. Now, a lot of countries don't report their deaths. Obviously, China's not reporting, because they had far more than we did. China had far more deaths than we did, in my opinion. It's just my opinion, but they don't report their deaths, or they don't report them accurately.
And I could -- I don't want to embarrass other countries, but I can tell you, there are other countries where the death toll is far higher than the United States, but they don't report deaths. We report it to a level that nobody reports it.
We also do testing and cases. I watch your broadcasts and read your information, your media outlets, very, very carefully. And I look at the word cases.
And the reason it's -- I say it a hundred times. Nobody wants to pick it up. But we do testing at a level that nobody ever dreamed possible. We have the best tests and we have by far the most tests. Actually, India -- as per your question before, India is number two. And they've done a good job, but they're about 40 million tests behind us.
And they're a country of 1.5 billion people. Now, because of all these tests, we have far more cases. If we cut our cases in half, if we cut our testing in half, we'd probably have about half the number of cases. If we cut it down to levels -- there are some countries that don't test.
They test when somebody walks into a hospital. That's the test you get. They walk into a hospital. They're sick. That's your test. We have tested more and better.
And you just see where we now have millions of tests coming in from a certain company that's done a fantastic job, and it's going to be anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 minutes, on the spot, very accurate test.
But if we had much less testing, no testing, we would have -- you wouldn't be reporting cases. But you saw the -- I don't want to go over the statistics. You all wrote it down, but you see how we're doing compared to the rest of the world.
And you see it. And if you took out New York, which has been a tragic situation, with the amount of people that died in New York...
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: You can't just simply take out a major state in the U.S. It's still a part of the United States, New York is.
TRUMP: No, I'm just saying...
QUESTION: You can't take it out of the equation.
TRUMP: I'm just saying, New York has been, in particular, run, whether it's badly, incompetently, or whether it's unfortunate.
And I appreciated Governor Cuomo saying that I've done a phenomenal job. And he said very good things. He said bad things, too, later on, when he had no real other choice.
But if you took out New York from those numbers, you can multiply our tremendous success by a lot.
But, look, the bottom line is that the job we've done on COVID-19, or the China virus, China plague, call it whatever you want -- there are a lot of different names -- but it's been incredible. We've also helped a lot of other countries, especially with ventilators, because we are now -- we build ventilators at a level that nobody ever thought possible.
So...
QUESTION: You don't see that forecast being accurate, the one that I cited to you?
TRUMP: Yes, but you didn't hear me. If we didn't do what I said, we would be at two million deaths right now.
QUESTION: But taking that into account, it's just going forward.
TRUMP: No, they're not taking that into account.
I had a choice to make. If we made the wrong choice, the number that you have, which is less than other countries, but the other countries don't report deaths. They don't report them to the extent -- and they're not accurate. You know that, and so do I, because we have -- you take a look at some of the things happening in certain other very large countries.
[18:05:10]
First of all, we're a very large country. But if you take a look at things happening with respect to the reporting of deaths in other countries, and I say, give me a break.
So it's been amazing, but we made some moves at the beginning. China, big, Europe, big. But the biggest of all was closing it down, understanding the disease, and we did. And now we know it's the elderly. It's especially elderly if they have heart, diabetes, if they have problems.
And we're watching it, and we're watching it very closely. And, by the way, we're doing super testing with respect to that, super testing.
But if we did it a different way, instead of the number that you said -- but, basically, the number that we're at now is approximately 180,000. We'd be at two million people right now. It could be higher than that.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: The Russia vaccine, Mr. President.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: I don't anything about the Russia vaccine. I'm not sure.
We have our vaccine. And our vaccine is -- I think it's going to be the standard. It's going to be great. These companies are incredible. They've come up with great vaccines over the years. And that's the vaccine that probably most of the people in this room are going to want to take.
Right.
QUESTION: Thanks, Mr. President.
A quick clarification and then my question.
The $300 billion, is that from the Main Street Lending Program, or is that from a different part? Where are you...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: It's sitting in an account, has not been spent, but we're willing to spend it.
No, we're willing to spend it. I'd like to get approval from Congress. There's a theory that I don't have to do that, but I'd rather be up front and I'd like to get approval from Congress, let it go directly to the people.
It would be a great stimulus. It's actually more stimulus than we're asking for in terms of pure stimulus. This would be pure stimulus. I wouldn't have to let prisoners go, some very evil prisoners go. Like, think of it.
The Democrats, in order to get what they want, and in order to give us what we -- they're talking about allowing prisoners to be released, prisoners that we don't want to be released. So, in order that we get money to the American people, they want to say release prisoners and other things like that that are very bad.
And we just can't do that. We don't want to do that.
QUESTION: And then, just to follow on John's (ph) question. I know you spoke earlier about the "Atlantic" story. And you've referenced the number of administration officials who have come out to support your...
TRUMP: No. No. We have 11 people, I was just told. I was just told, we have 11 people.
There is nobody that feels more strongly about our soldiers, our wounded warriors, our soldiers that died in war than I do. It's a hoax, just like the fake dossier was a hoax, just like the Russia, Russia, Russia was a hoax. It was a total hoax, no collusion, just like so many other things. It's a hoax. And you'll hear more of these things totally unrelated as we get
closer and closer to election. The magazine is a failing magazine. And nobody called me. Nobody called me from the magazine, said, you have a comment about it?
No, they just write whatever they want to write, because they figure you can't get sued. You can get sued, but it's very hard -- it's a very hard -- bringing lawsuits.
But we have many witnesses . And it's a total -- it's a total -- it's just a continuation of the witch-hunt, so that it can hopefully affect the election.
But the American people are too smart. So, whether it's the fake dossier that turned out to be a total fraud or so many other things. So many other things have turned out.
I've been under investigation from before I even got elected. These people have gone after me more than any president in the United States in history, in the history of the United States. And it's a shame. It's a shame.
And despite that, we've done more in the first 3.5 years than any administration. There has been no administration that's done more. When you add it all up, there's been no -- despite all of the horrible political games that have been played. But there's nobody that's been able to do what I've done.
And that includes the great MISSION Act, because what Obama passed was a joke. It was a joke. And we took it to a level that nobody thought possible. And that includes accountability.
So it's a disgrace that somebody's allowed to write things like that. It could have been -- a lot of times, the sources aren't sources. They don't exist. And, sometimes, the sources are just people that are disgruntled former so-called employees.
QUESTION: But my question is sort of about that.
I mean, the notable voice has been missing from the denials is your former Chief of Staff John Kelly, who was obviously intimately involved in this.
What -- how are we supposed to read the fact that John Kelly hasn't...
TRUMP: Well, look, here's the thing. I know John Kelly. He was with me, didn't do a good job, had no temperament.
[18:10:05]
And, ultimately, he was petered out. He got -- he was exhausted. This man was totally exhausted. He wasn't even able to function in the last number of months. He was not able to function.
He was sort of a tough guy. By the time he got eaten up in this world, it's a different world than he was used to, he was unable to function. And I told him, John, you're going to have to go. Please give me a letter of resignation. And we did that.
And now he goes out and bad-mouths. Now, there are people that are jealous. There are people that are upset that they're not here anymore. There are people -- we've done an incredible job. The virus came in, and now we're doing an incredible job again.
We're going to build it up bigger than it was before the virus came in. But I don't know that it was him. I haven't seen that. I mean, I see anonymous, but it could have been a guy like a John Kelly, because he was...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Because -- just so you understand, he was a very -- you look at some of his news conferences, what happened to him, he got eaten alive. He was unable to handle the pressure of this job.
This job was a tough job. Mark Meadows doing a great job, but Kelly was unable to do that.
And, as far as that day, I mean, we have so much proof as to going to the -- I went to Paris and the environs. And I was all set to go. They had a rainstorm, the likes of which you rarely see. The fog was so great. It was as dense as I've ever seen.
And I almost knew that you couldn't use the helicopter. And because they had a drive through -- I guess, certain parts of Paris, the Secret Service, who, by the way, we have people here that were on the trip. They're writing a report. Unable to even think about it.
And I said, nope, I want to go. I insist on going. It would have taken us forever. The Paris police said, please, you can't do this. They'd have to shut down various parts of Paris. And it just was not a possible situation.
The helicopter would have been very quick. They had the helicopter all set, but the helicopter could never fly in that kind of weather. So, and that turned out -- and that's all documented, by the way. We have all of the information from -- and probably will release that information.
But I think it's a shame, when a second-rate magazine. I don't read it. I know very little about this magazine. But when a second-rate magazine can write things like that about somebody that's done so much for the military, can write things like that, and get away with it, where you actually ask questions on it, it's a disgrace.
And you ought to be ashamed of yourself. And let me just tell you, I watched the interview with sleepy Joe Biden, and he didn't ask questions. You didn't ask questions like that.
Read the questions you asked. They were like meant for a child. Those questions were meant for a child, smiles on faces of reporters, not like you and you. There were smiles on the reporters.
What do you think? Take a look at those questions that they ask him. They were not meant for a grownup. They were meant for a child.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: So, I just wanted to just tell you -- I just want to tell you it's a disgrace, because you look at what I've done for the United States military.
I love those people. I've gotten them pay raises, when they didn't get anything near what I've been able to do. And I've rebuilt -- $2.5 trillion. I've rebuilt the United States military. Now we're including Space Force.
Nobody's done more for them. And then when I have to have a report read like that from a third-rate magazine that's not going to be in business much longer, I look at that, and I think it's a disgrace.
And then when I watch Biden getting asked questions that are really meant for a child to answer, anybody could answer, and I look at the level of question that you people ask, I mean, honestly, it's disgraceful.
So, I want to thank you all very much. We appreciate it. And we're doing very well. We're very, very proud of what's happened with respect to the economy.
And I think that, before the election, you're going to see a third quarter announced. The third quarter will be at a level that our country has never seen before.
Next year, we're going to have a year that was better than last year. And I feel very certain it will be better than last year. It'll be the greatest year we've had.
And the whole reason this is working out this way is because we set a foundation for this country like we've never had before. So, next year is going to be a fantastic year.
But remember this. The third quarter is going to be announced sometime prior to the election by a few days, actually. And I think it's going to be record-setting type numbers on GDP and other things.
Thank you all very much.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: OK, that was president there angrily denying this report in "The Atlantic" that he once referred to wounded and dead U.S. service members as losers and suckers.
At one point, he seemed to be speculating that his former chief of staff, the retired General John Kelly, was one of the sources in that article. He referred to General Kelly as somebody who was exhausted by the time he was finished in his role as chief of staff at the White House, and that he didn't do a good job, according to the president.
[18:15:18]
So, we will see if General Kelly comes out in surfaces and speaks about all of this. We will see about that.
But, first, let me go to Kaitlan Collins over at the White House.
Kaitlan, the president was pretty fired up about that "Atlantic" article.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he was.
And what he was saying there about John Kelly is really notable, the way he talked about him as he was leaving his chief of staff job. Remember, John Kelly is a retired four-star Marine general, went to combat, led Southern Command.
And the president was saying, basically, he couldn't handle the chief of staff position and he was exhausted by the time he left the job, and the president going off on John Kelly and saying he doesn't know if he was a source of the story, but he says he could have been, it could have been a John Kelly-type figure.
And, of course, that was because, as you saw there, he was asked by Bloomberg, why not have -- why had John Kelly been one of the officials who had not come out and said anything about this story today? He hadn't confirmed it on the record, but he did not deny it.
And, of course, he is someone who is mentioned in that story, not only was there with the president in November 2018 in Paris, but also there was a story about the president going with John Kelly to Arlington Cemetery, where his son, who was killed in the Middle East, is buried, and a comment that the president made there.
So it'll be interesting to see if John Kelly does respond to the president. We have seen him speak out only privately against President Trump.
But, Jim, something else I want to note from that press conference is, this is the first time that the president has been asked in a substantive way about the poisoning of that Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny.
The president was saying that he has not seen the evidence to say that he was poisoned. And that comes after, yesterday, Germany and NATO, other NATO allies, came out and said that they had determined it was a Soviet-style nerve agent that he had been poisoned with
He is being treated in Germany. And the German chancellor is the one that confirmed that. And the NATO general-secretary said it was proof beyond a doubt that he had been poisoned.
Yes, instead of the president saying that he would condemn Russia if they did, he said he'd be angry if it was them, but he was very cautious to say he didn't know that it was. And he said he wants to see more evidence going forward.
And then, Jim, he chastised reporters for asking so much about Russia and not asking more about China. ACOSTA: Yes, Kaitlan, it was yet another muted response from the
president on an act of Russian aggression here, going after one of its own -- one of its own in Alexei Navalny.
Gloria Borger, what stood out to you?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, just to follow up on what Kaitlan is saying, I mean, obviously, the way he took after his former Chief of Staff John Kelly, and calling this entire "Atlantic" piece, disparaging the magazine, calling "The Atlantic" piece a hoax, saying that we have 11 people.
I guess they're putting together some kind of a dossier, I hate to use that word, some kind of proof that -- what the magazine was saying. And, by the way, what the magazine wrote has been confirmed by other news organizations, saying that this is not true, and the president portraying himself somehow against victim here.
And, again, taking after Kelly, disparaging him, saying that he didn't do a good job, that he wasn't able to function in the last couple of months when he was White House chief of staff. He said that Kelly got eaten alive, and went on and on about that, and couldn't seem to get away from the personal in that sense, without -- without coming out and saying, look -- defending himself on other terms.
I mean, he said he's helped the veterans, et cetera. But then he went and turned on Joe Biden and said, well, I watched his interviews today, and you guys threw him softballs, effectively. He said, these are questions that were not meant for a grownup.
I'm not quite sure what he meant by that, but, again, seems very angry about this. And I don't know who else, other than John Kelly, he believes was the source for this, unless he believes that the sources were manufactured, which, of course, they were not.
ACOSTA: And, Brian Stelter, it was almost as if he was giving you a plug during this news conference.
He referred to "The Atlantic" magazine story as a hoax, and saying it was just like the Russia investigation and so on.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: He's proving the point of my new book, because he uses the word hoax, this very malicious word, in order to shut down conversation and cause people not to ask questions.
But, thankfully, the press corps is asking about these key points in the "Atlantic" article.
On the factual statements by the president -- a lot of what he says is hyperbole, complaining about the magazine. But when he says "The Atlantic" is a third-rate magazine that's not going to be in business much longer, that's just factually untrue.
[18:20:10] Its financials are stable. It is doing very well. And Jeffrey Goldberg, the reporter of this piece, is one of the most respected journalists in Washington.
So, all of that has to be factored in, when we know he has a lot of credibility, and Trump does not.
I think it's really notable, Jim, that FOX News has matched some of the reporting that "The Atlantic" has. FOX's Jennifer Griffin has reported, quoting two former senior Trump administration officials, that, yes, the president did disparage veterans, did not want to drive to the cemetery that day in France.
So, FOX might downplay this story. They're going to try to run away from the story on their own network, but FOX has its own reporting to back this up, and that makes it even harder for the president to deny. This is one of those times when FOX's reporting is important. It's going to be even harder for the president to dispute it.
But, Jim, I think this puts more pressure on these anonymous sources to come forward, to think about whether they can put their names to these quotes.
Let's see if John Kelly, for example, comes out and confirms or denies.
ACOSTA: That's a very good question.
And, Daniel Dale, what stood out to you? There was a lot to fact-check there. I didn't want to see a live picture of you listening to that. I thought it might be painful. But, as a fact-checker, that was tough.
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: It always is with the president, Jim.
The president said that convalescent plasma is having a tremendous impact in the fight against the coronavirus. As Dr. Fauci and an expert panel of the National Institutes of Health have said, we do not have definitive, conclusive proof that that is actually effective. The jury is very much still out.
As Kaitlan said, the president said that we do not have proof of the poisoning of Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny. As she said, the NATO secretary-general said, we have proof beyond doubt. So that's a very different statement.
Trump again said that Joe Biden wants to shut the country down, that he has a plan for a blanket shutdown. Biden has not said he wants to, has not introduced any plan. Rather, what he said is that we have to listen to scientists. And if, in the future, if there's a future crisis, and the scientists said that we need to shut it down to fight it, he would, in that case, shut it down.
He again said that we would look good in terms of coronavirus numbers if we removed the state of New York. Take -- leaving aside how absurd that is, just eliminating a major state from the numbers, we would still have more than 150,000 deaths if you did not count New York deaths.
And, Jim, finally, I will note one stitch of progress, because it's rare we see progress as fact-checkers. The president has lied more than 150 times that he is the one who got the Veterans Choice health care program passed. He did it again yesterday.
But today, in the briefing, he amended the claim, I think, for the first time ever, and said accurately that he got the VA MISSION Act signed. That's an act that amended the Choice program.
So, very rare progress, a little hint of progress, but it's something.
ACOSTA: It shows he's watching, Daniel.
All right, thank you for that. We appreciate that, all of you.
And I want to get straight to the nation's top infectious disease expert, Dr. Anthony Fauci, who's joining us now.
Dr. Fauci, thanks so much for joining us.
Before I get to some of the questions we wanted to talk to you about, I have to ask you, because the president has been mentioning this over the last couple of days -- and I know you don't like to be put side by side with the president in terms of what he says, but he's saying that we're rounding the corner when it comes to the coronavirus.
What do you make of that characterization?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I'm not sure what he means.
There are certain states that are actually doing well, in the sense of that the case numbers are coming down.
Our concern right now is that there are a number of states, particularly, for example, the Dakotas, Montana, Michigan, Minnesota and others, who are starting to have an uptick in what we call percent positive of testing, which generally is a predictor that there's going to be a problem.
And that's one of the reasons, Jim, why we're concerned about the upcoming Labor Day weekend. We want to make sure that, in -- all over the country, but particularly in the vulnerable states that are starting to show an uptick, that we abide by the public health mandates and rules that we talk about all the time over the weekend and not, in essence, have the same kind of surges that we have seen following other holiday weekends, like the Fourth of July and Memorial Day.
So, we really want to pay attention to that. And, hopefully, people, particularly the younger people, will pay attention to things like wearing a mask, avoiding close contact, avoiding crowds, and doing whatever you can possibly do outdoors, as opposed to indoors.
If we do that, we should get through the weekend OK. ACOSTA: And that is absolutely critical.
And we're now seven months into this crisis, as you know all too well.
I want to play for our viewers what you said at the early stages of this in March. Let's listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: Looking at what we're seeing now, I would say between 100,000 and 200,000 cases, but I don't want to be held to that, because it's -- excuse me -- deaths.
I mean, we're going to have millions of cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Back in March, 200,000 deaths was almost unimaginable. But now the CDC expects the death toll to surpass that number in the next few weeks.
[18:25:03]
If the United States continues on this current track, what will the next six or seven months look like? It does sound nightmarish.
FAUCI: Well, yes, it's obviously disturbing, Jim, particularly, as I have said to you and others on this show multiple times, we have got to get our baseline back down to a much lower level.
We're hovering at around 40,000 cases a day. We were hanging around 20,000 for several weeks in a row. Then we had the surge in the Southern states, Florida, Texas, California, Arizona, and we went right up to about 70,000.
We're down now to 40,000. We have got to get it much lower than that, because, if you go to a low baseline, and then you get cases that occur, you can actually handle them, get good identification, isolation and contact tracing.
But when you have an intensity of community spread, it makes it that much more difficult. And that's the reason why I keep saying over and over again, we have got to be very careful, particularly as we enter this holiday weekend.
ACOSTA: Absolutely.
And the president just now repeated what he's been saying that, if we had much less testing or no testing, you wouldn't be reporting cases.
Have you talked to him about this? Does he not understand that, even if you don't test, the cases still exist?
FAUCI: I have not specifically spoken to the president about that.
But I think it's very clear in the White House how I feel and how people like Dr. Birx feels, is that it really is important to do the kinds of testing that we're talking about. And these are indeed new cases. And the reason we know they're new cases, because, when you have the increase in cases, it's invariably followed by an increase in hospitalization and ultimately by an increase in deaths.
That's the real bottom line. The critical issue is the percent positives of the tests that you do. And we're starting to see an uptick in that in certain areas that's disturbing. And that's why we call out to the governors and the leaders of those states to please pay attention to that, because that can be a predictor of surges that we really are trying to avoid.
ACOSTA: And, Dr. Fauci, I want to ask you about this model by the University of Washington that just is stunning. And I know you have had questions about models in the past. They're not always what they're cracked up to be, I think, in your view.
But this new model estimates that the U.S. death toll could surpass 400,000 by January of 2021. That is a stunning number. And the researchers behind that model say that's partly because they're seeing declining mask use.
Is that what you're seeing? And what do you make of that estimate?
FAUCI: Well, as I said, and you said it yourself, Jim, you have got to be careful with models. It depends on the assumptions that you put into the model.
The model got that high -- I think it was 410,000 they predicted by January -- because that's taking in the factor that, as we get into the winter, the fall and the winter, there's going to be a lot more indoor activity, as opposed to outdoor activity.
And if you combine indirect activity with the lack of uniform utilization of masks, then you could start really getting into trouble. That's the reason why we say, right now, outdoor is always better than indoor.
But when you get into the cold of the late fall and the early winter, sometimes, it's impossible to do activities outdoors. And if you're going to do it indoors, particularly if there's crowds, you really need to wear a mask.
So, that model was saying, if we don't have very, very strong, pronounced utilization of masks, almost uniformly, you can get into the same kind of trouble that they're predicting, namely, a considerable amount of cases.
In this case, we are talking about 410,000 deaths, which I surely hope we don't even approach that.
ACOSTA: Do you think it's possible?
FAUCI: Of course it's possible.
I mean, we have we have done this -- these dances, as it were, Jim, with the models back and forth. You put one assumption in, you get this out. You pull out the assumption, another thing happens.
What the models are useful for is that they're telling you, if you do a lot of indoor activity, and you don't utilize masks to the utmost, you very likely will get to this number.
We can mitigate that. I have always said, I mean, models are good to give you an idea of what you can expect. But when you see that, to me, it's a good heads-up and say, wait a minute, we don't want to get to that number, by any stretch of the imagination. So, what are we going to do to prevent us from getting that number?
So, in some respects, although the number is a little scary, Jim, it may be sort of a nudge for us to realize that we can do something to stop that.
One of the things we can do, as you mentioned, is a more uniform utilization of masks.
[18:30:02]
ACOSTA: All right. And numerous sources within the administration are telling us that the president is ramping pressure on health officials to deliver good news on a vaccine front before the November election. Just moments ago, President Trump said, we could probably have the vaccine sometime in October. Moncef Slaoui, the head of Operation Warp Speed, said today that he would resign if he saw undue interference in the process. Would you do the same?
FAUCI: Well, I mean, I am not a regulator. I mean, I just do the science. I report the science in an accurate way. And certainly if I saw interference, I would be very disturbed and would call it out.
ACOSTA: You would speak up?
FAUCI: I am assuming that we're not going to get any interference. Of course, as I always do, Jim. You know that.
ACOSTA: That's true. But if you see that kind of interference, that kind of undue pressure, you would speak up?
FAUCI: Well, I would. But, Jim, I don't think you're going to see that because a lot of what we are talking about is transparency. I think the public needs to understand when the data come in on the vaccine results, you know, they come into what's the Data and the Safety Monitoring Board, which is an independent group of people who evaluate the data, evaluate the safety of it and report on this. This ultimately becomes public knowledge anyway.
So, I mean, I have faith in the system that the FDA will do what they promise. And they promise that they will make decisions on a regulatory basis purely on the basis of the science and the evidence. And I am counting on them to do that.
ACOSTA: And we have now seen data on Russia's vaccine in phase one and two. That vaccine produced an immune response and only mild side- effects. You previously said you seriously doubt Russia had produced a safe and effective vaccine. Do you still have some doubts about the Russians are up to after seeing this new data?
FAUCI: No., Jim I think we need to remove the confusion about this, the thing that concerns me and others when they said that they have a vaccine that they're going to be giving to a whole bunch of people. And I said is that, well, first you better prove that it is safe and effective before you make a decision to distribute the vaccine widely.
What the Russians have done now was that correct thing. They did a phase one study, a two-part phase one study, in 40 people. They found it was safe and it induced a reasonable immune response. So I congratulate them on that. That's what they should be doing, do a phase one study, then a phase two study, then do a phase three for efficacy and safety. And if it looks like it works, I really hope they have a vaccine that works. We need as many vaccines as we possibly can get into the system.
ACOSTA: Absolutely. And I want to ask you about the health effects of evictions. I don't know if you have seen this story yet, Dr. Fauci, but our Kyung Lah, one of our colleagues at CNN, did a report, it was a very moving report on a family with two young kids being evicted and an older woman that was going to be put out on the street. What are the possible health effects of evictions in the middle of a pandemic? It is not something that we've talked, I don't think, quite enough.
FAUCI: Well, any disruptions of the normal course of events of a person's life clearly could be deleterious to everything we care about with public health. I mean, when you evict somebody and homeless, we know how vulnerable the homeless are to so many things, including things like COVID infection of the coronavirus.
So, I mean, the one thing we don't want to see is a lot of people who would not have been homeless to now be homeless. That just complicated everything we're trying to do from a public health standpoint.
ACOSTA: And as we head into the Labor Day weekend, I know you talked about this a little bit earlier what people should not do. What activities would you give your stamp of approval to if people are out there wondering, I need Dr. Fauci's blessing on this activity, what activity would that be. Outdoor barbecues, that sort of thing, hiking?
FAUCI: Yes, it would be outdoors. I mean, whether you like to hike or not, go out on a trail, breathe the fresh air, enjoy the warm weather. If you are going to be on the beach, beaches are fine as long as you try to keep some distance between yourselves and others. I mean, I see pictures on beaches and people can relatively easy separate themselves from others. Just try and do outdoor activities.
If you're going to do it socially with other people, don't make it a large crowd. A couple of friends that you are intimately connected with, good friends, you have a barbecue, you do the things that you want to do, stay outside, do the kinds of things if you are going to be close to people that you can't keep distance, wear a mask, avoid crowds, wash your hands frequently. And as you said and I say, do things outdoors.
We are fortunate we are still in a season where we can enjoy things outdoors.
[18:35:04]
So this could be a good weekend for everyone without putting yourselves into the danger of either acquiring or transmitting infection.
ACOSTA: And how would you be spending the Labor Day weekend?
FAUCI: I'm going to be working unfortunately, Jim.
ACOSTA: Does Dr. Fauci have any plans?
FAUCI: Well, I have a bunch of work I need to do. But I am going to go on a very long mini-hike with my wife. I enjoy that very much. I might even go down to the C&O Canal and maybe even put a little fishing line into the water and see what I can catch.
ACOSTA: And how is your health? You recently had surgery on your vocal chords. I can tell the difference. Your voice sounds like it feels better. Are you feeling better now?
FAUCI: Yes, I feel great, Jim. In fact, I got a couple of emails from people saying they heard me either on the radio or on T.V. and they couldn't believe it was me because I don't sound like Vito Corleone anymore, I sound like Tony Fauci.
ACOSTA: And how are you holding up? I've seen you talk about how your personal life is going, how your family is dealing with all of this. And there were some rough -- there have been some rough moments along the way during this pandemic. Have those things improved? How are things going right now for you and your family?
FAUCI: I am doing fine, Jim. I have a great family. My wife is amazing. My children are very strong. But the things have not gotten better with regard to the hassles from the far extreme people who make threats both to me, family, wife and my daughters. I don't mind them doing it to me. I don't really care. I blow that off. But I don't really like to see my wife and my children being hassled.
But that is just the nature of the divisiveness in our society. It's just part of the facts of life, unfortunate but just part of the facts of life.
ACOSTA: Well, we hope you get some time over this Labor Day weekend to decompress. Really, you can't work all the time, Dr. Fauci. We know you like to work but you can't do it around the clock or it catches up with you, as we all know. But we appreciate you coming on and hanging in there, as there were some other news developing during the first part of this hour.
But, Dr. Fauci, thanks so much for joining us, have a good Labor Day weekend and hope you stay safe as well. We appreciate it.
FAUCI: Yes, you too, Jim. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
ACOSTA: All right.
FAUCI: Take care.
ACOSTA: You too.
And coming up, a former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel joins me. I will get his reaction to a stunning report detailing President Trump's insulting comments about dead and wounded American troops. This is a CNN Situation Room special report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:00]
ACOSTA: Tonight, more fallout about a truly stunning report about President Trump's apparent disdain for fallen American troops. For more on today's developments, I want to bring in former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel. Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
I want to get your reaction to this reporting in The Atlantic that President Trump called fallen troops losers and suckers and he apparently disparaged wounded veterans, according to this report.
But just before I get to that, I want to ask you, you saw what the president was saying just a few moments ago during his press conference about the former chief of staff, retired General John Kelly. He seemed to disparaged John Kelly, saying he didn't do a good job, that he was exhausted on the way out, sort of mocked his reputation as being a tough guy and so on. What did you think of that?
CHUCK HAGEL, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, Jim, thank you for having me. I did see it. It was disgusting. If this wasn't so serious, if this wasn't coming from the commander in chief of the United States of America, to say this about a four-star general who has committed -- he and his family committed their lives to this country, given a son to this country in battle. And to say that is degrading, it's despicable and there is no defense of it. There is no defense of what he has said about General Kelly.
I worked with General Kelly when I was secretary of defense. There is no more honorable man than John Kelly, or no more of a patriot committed to this country than John Kelly.
ACOSTA: And so do you believe what The Atlantic is reporting about the president's comments about fallen troops being losers and suckers and so on?
HAGEL: Well, Jim, like all things, I have to refer back to what the president himself has said to validate what that article said, starting with what he said about John McCain over the years. And he was given the chance to rescind the statements today, just a few minutes ago, as you know, and he wouldn't.
The issue in the 2018, going to the American military cemetery in France, that's B.S. Every one of the leaders who were there, the leader of Germany, the leader of France, the leader Canada, others leaders, they drove to honor U.S. Marines for what they did in World War II. Him taking almost $4 billion out of defense contracting moneys that were going to build schools and hospitals and facilities for the American troops and their families made a whole list of things that he has done to deface our military.
And watching this day after day, if it wasn't so serious, Jim, it would be like a clown show, like a daily clown show. I saw Bill Cohen's comments earlier in the last hour with you.
[18:45:04]
When he talked about how the United States has fallen in the eyes of the world, how we have post-World War II been a leader and we were respected for our values and morals. We haven't done anything right, we made a lot of mistakes.
But everybody knew they could count on us. They could count on a president who said the right things, although we all disagreed with different actions. But we lost that. And I think that's the bigger story here.
And then what this does, this "Atlantic" story, it focuses on the debasement of our veterans, of our -- of our men and women who have given themselves to this country. I mean, it's really astounding.
ACOSTA: And I -- I sense the passion coming out of your voice. We heard the same from the former Secretary William Cohen.
What is it about the story, what is it about this subject that so concerns people in the military community, people like yourself? And concern is not really a strong enough word. You get the sense that there are people in the military community who are just outraged by the president's behavior, and what has been reported in the "Atlantic Magazine".
HAGEL: Well, Jim, part of my reaction is not just as the former secretary of defense, the leader of our armed forces in America and a former United States senator, but more to the point, I am a veteran myself.
My brother Tom and I served together in Vietnam in 1968. We served with and met the finest people we have ever known in our lives, their families, everything they represent. That's where I start.
But then to your more general question, he has used the military for three and a half years. He used them as props, in his campaigns.
And every time that he announces something, he always uses it as props. What he did in Washington, D.C. a couple of months ago, when he brought in an airborne division, camped outside of Washington D.C.
Everything that he uses, he uses our military. He uses our people. He uses our tradition in the military of service.
I don't know if every one of those comments in "The Atlantic Magazine" was correct. I don't know.
I would say this about those that evidently made those comments to Mr. Goldberg, who is a very respected journalist, and I know him. It is their time now, it is their time now to step forward and use their names.
I mean, quit enabling this guy. Come on. Show some courage. Do you have any courage at all?
It's easy to say things when it is anonymous. Nobody is using your name. Not so easy when you have to step out in front.
Now is the time to do this or I fear another four years, not only what he is doing to our military but what he is doing to this country.
ACOSTA: All right. Former Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel calling out those sources who spoke to Jeff Goldberg in "The Atlantic Magazine" to come forward and say what they know.
Secretary Hagel, some strong comments tonight. We appreciate it very much. Thank you, sir.
Just ahead, Joe Biden gives an emotional --
HAGEL: Jim, thanks.
ACOSTA: Thank you very much.
New interview to CNN. We'll bring you much more right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:53:06]
ACOSTA: 2020 Presidential campaign is heating up. As the summer winds down, the Biden campaign marked a significant shift this week as the Democratic nominee made its first trip outside the Northeast since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic.
Let's discuss with our chief political analyst Gloria Borger.
Gloria, we definitely saw a shift in Joe Biden's campaign this week. He was traveling out of the state of Delaware, out of the Philadelphia area. He took more questions than he has previously.
BORGER: Right.
ACOSTA: And the campaign is starting to feel the heat as we get closer to Election Day. This is certainly a new phase.
BORGER: Yeah, it is a new -- it is a new phase. I think, you know, you saw Biden go to Kenosha. You saw Biden have a press conference today responding to the "Atlantic" article and to talk about the economy.
I think they're trying to get the vice president out there and Kamala Harris out there in a safe way. They're not going to be having large rallies. They're going to be encouraging people to wear a mask.
But I do think they do believe that voters want to see you in their state or make the effort in one way or another to get out there and show that they really want their votes.
ACOSTA: And I want to play a clip for our viewers from your new documentary.
BORGER: Thank you.
ACOSTA: It's going to be terrific.
BORGER: Thank you.
ACOSTA: Let's watch and talk on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BORGER (voice-over): While the vice president tried to help his son, the son tried to help his father.
TED KAUFMAN, FRIEND AND POLITICAL ADVISER: I actually believe and I'll believe it to the day I die was the thing that Beau was not most afraid of is dying. What he was most afraid of was the impact it would have on his dad, that it would really take his dad out.
BORGER (on camera): Did he tell you that?
KAUFMAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, all time.
BORGER (voice-over): It's something the vice president wrote about in 2017 in his book "Promise Me, Dad."
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Beau just made me promise -- this was just before he died -- he said, dad, you've got to promise me you're going to be okay.
[18:55:00]
I said, Beau, I'll be -- he said, dad look at me, look me in the eye, dad. Give me your word as a Biden dad, you're going to -- you're going to be okay.
BORGER (on camera): Are you okay?
BIDEN: I am because it is still emotional, but I knew what he meant. He was worried I'd walk away from everything I had worked in my whole life, the things I had cared about. He knew I would take care of the family. He never wondered about that, but he didn't want me walking away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forward march.
BORGER (voice-over): Beau Biden died on May 30th, 2015. He was 46 years old.
(on camera): Is it true you keep Beau's rosary with you.
BIDEN: I've got it in my pocket.
BORGER: All the time?
BIDEN: I keep it all the time. He had it when he passed away. It was more gold. You can see it's worn.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: And, Gloria, what struck you from your conversation with Joe Biden? I mean, that was definitely an emotional moment there.
BORGER: It was. I mean, what struck me from the vice president and all the reporting and the people we interviewed on this piece is that this is a man who's been in public life one way or another for almost five decades.
And when you look back on it, you know, here's a guy who started as the candidate of change, Jim, when he was 29 years old in 1972. He was running for a seat in the Senate. Nobody thought he could win. He wasn't even old enough to serve in the Senate at that time because, of course, you have to be 30.
He was audacious and arrogant. He tried and he beat a popular Republican incumbent. And now, you see all these years later and all he's been through in his life, not only the tragedy with Beau, but losing his wife and baby daughter in that car accident right after he got elected to that Senate seat.
You see, after all he's been through, he's still kind of working at it. And, you know, he told me, look, I wouldn't have run if it weren't for Charlottesville and the way the president reacted to that, but he somehow felt that he -- that he needed to do it.
And when I talked to his friends and people who have known him for years, they somehow have this sense that the empathy we talk about with Joe Biden is something that the country might need right now, and that he is the polar opposite, of course, of Donald Trump.
ACOSTA: That is so true. And Beau Biden's service in the military, how much do you think that influenced Joe Biden's outrage over that "Atlantic" story?
BIDEN: A lot. Biden talks a lot about how proud he is of Beau Biden's service in Iraq. And you heard him today said, look, my son was an attorney general and he did this because he loves his country. And so, what you saw from Biden today was a very visceral reaction to what is reported in "The Atlantic".
So, it wasn't just -- it wasn't just that, you know, that it was disgraceful, true. There was a kind of emotional part of him which said, wait a minute, this is my son, who was in -- who was in Iraq. This is my son who served.
What if he had died there, how would I have felt if my son were one of those who had fallen? So, I think you -- you know, Biden is an emotional guy. He's emotional about his family. In this documentary, I ask him about his sister, and he kind of tears up talking about his sister who's run almost every campaign he's ever been in.
And he's so emotional about Beau and his grief over that. And I think we saw that today.
ACOSTA: All right, Gloria Borger, we are looking forward to this documentary coming up.
BORGER: Thanks. Thanks, Jim.
ACOSTA: Thanks so much for laying it out for us. We appreciate it.
And be sure to tune in this coming Monday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern for our CNN special report Gloria just talked about "Fight for the White House: Joe Biden's Long Journey."
And before we leave you this evening, we want to take a moment to remember some of the people we've lost to the coronavirus pandemic.
Bobbie Ann Huff of Indiana was 73 years old. She was a strong and funny woman who leaves behind three children and seven grandchildren. Bobbie put herself through nursing school as a young woman and later became a special educator.
Liaquat Mohammed of New York was 70 years old. He was originally from Trinidad and moved to the United States in the 1980s. He was a loving father and grandfather who enjoying taking road trips with his family.
May they rest in peace and may all of the people who have been taken by this terrible virus also rest in peace. We're thinking of all of them this Labor Day weekend.
I'm Jim Acosta. Thanks very much for watching. Have a very safe and healthy Labor Day weekend. Wear your mask. Stay safe. Listen to Dr. Fauci.
And "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
