Return to Transcripts main page
The Situation Room
U.S. Nearing Grim Milestone On Coronavirus Deaths; Trump Grades Himself A+ For Coronavirus Handling; Interview With Bob Woodward; Woodward's Conclusion: Trump Is "Wrong Man" For The Job; Trump Says He'd "Much Rather" Have Senate Vote On Nominee Before Election. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired September 21, 2020 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump is at 42 percent given the margin of error. There is no clear leader in Nevada, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And neither candidate in the high 40s or 50 which is where they need to be to have a win. Kyung Lah, thank you so much. Our coverage on CNN continues right now.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. We're following breaking news. The U.S. right now on the brink of surpassing 200,000 coronavirus deaths with more than 6.8 million known cases. And tonight the number of new cases is on the rise in more than half the country, 28 states.
Also breaking, more confusion about the virus as the CDC abruptly reverses guidance that just went out on Friday on airborne transmission, now saying that guidance was posted in error.
And we're also following the battle over filling the seat of the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. President Trump saying moments ago he'd much rather the Senate vote on his nominee before the November 3rd election.
We're going to talk about all of the breaking news this hour with my one-on-one interview with a veteran journalist Bob Woodward. There you see him. We'll discuss all of these issues live. That's coming up.
First though, more on the breaking pandemic news. Our national correspondent Athena Jones is working the story for us from New York. Athena, the country is about to mark a truly terrible milestone.
ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. That's right, a terrible milestone of 200,000 lives lost to COVID-19, but we're also seeing an uptick in new cases. And that highlights what our doctors and experts have been telling us for weeks, months, really, that there is no national strategy.
And without one you can tamp down the virus in one state and it pops up in another. And so no state is really safe because the virus knows no borders. As Dr. Carlos del Rio from Emory University put it this morning, it's like a balloon. You squeeze it in one place and it pops in another.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT: We may be in for a very apocalyptic fall --
JONES (voice-over): As the U.S. approaches another grim milestone, 200,000 lives lost to coronavirus, signs the much feared fall surge in cases is already here.
SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: If you look at what's happening around the country right now, there's an unmistakable spike in new infections.
JONES (voice-over): New COVID-19 cases topping 40,000 a day on average with new daily infections now rising in 28 states, up more than 50 percent in eight states. Wisconsin, Idaho, and South Dakota all reporting COVID test positivity rates above 16 percent.
HOTEZ: It's happening because we're forcing schools to reopen in areas of high transmission, forcing colleges to reopen. And we don't have the leadership nationally telling people to wear masks and to social distance and do all the things we need to do.
JONES (voice-over): The startling trend coming as the CDC issues and then removes from its website new guidance showing just how contagious coronavirus is.
The agency noting it can spread through the air in tiny droplets or aerosols, not just when someone coughs, sneezes or talks, but even when they simply breathe. Highlighting restaurants, fitness classes and choir practice as risks. The agency later saying the new guidance was a draft posted in error.
LEANA WEN, FORMER BALTIMORE CITY HEALTH COMMISSIONER: It's extremely confusing, and that type of whiplash, especially without an explanation directly from the CDC creates confusion and unfortunately leads to lack of trust in the CDC overall.
JONES (voice-over): Meanwhile on the vaccine front, the White House's testing czar, Brett Giroir, arguing --
BRETT GIROIR, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, HHS: Vaccine as early as possible even in a few million doses will be a godsend in terms of outcomes, hospitalizations, morbidity and deaths.
JONES (voice-over): Still, Bill Gates warning of a long road ahead even after a vaccine is approved.
BILL GATES, CO-CHAIR, BILL AND MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION: If the vaccine approvals come by early next year, as I expect, then by next summer, U.S. will be starting to go back to normal, and by the end of the year, our activities can be fairly normal if we're also helping these other countries. At the end of the epidemic best case is probably 2022.
JONES (voice-over): All this as the influential model from the University of Washington now lowering its forecast for total U.S. COVID deaths by January 1st to just under 380,000, down from more than 415,000 last week, citing steeper than expected declines in deaths in several states.
But the model still predicts more than 3,000 deaths a day by the end of December and says a universal mask mandate could keep total deaths to around 263,000 by New Year's Day.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JONES (on camera): And I should note that that new forecast is really a range, just like they talk about how many lives could be saved if there was a universal mask mandate.
[17:04:58]
They also show that if current mandates are eased, the number of projected deaths soars to more than 445,000 by January 1st, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Athena, thank you very much. Athena Jones in New York. Let's go to the White House right now. Our chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta is standing by. Jim, the president spoke about the Supreme Court vacancy just a few moments ago as he was leaving the White House. Update our viewers.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. President Trump just told reporters he would like to see the seat left by the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg filled before Election Day.
The president said he's already spoken with some of the contenders on his short list and will continue to do so over the coming days as the president and Senate Republican leaders plot strategy for replacing Ginsburg.
The U.S. is on the verge of passing the grim milestone of 200,000 deaths from the coronavirus. Even as the U.S. is leading the world in COVID-19 deaths, the president is giving his administration a, "A plus for his handling of the virus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA (voice-over): In a stunning departure from reality, President Trump is giving himself the best possible grade for his handling of the coronavirus, even as the U.S. death toll has now reached a heartbreaking 200,000 lives lost, still more than any other country. The president is insisting the U.S. is somehow nearing the end of the pandemic when there is no basis for saying that.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): On the job itself, we take an A-plus. We're rounding the corner. With or without a vaccine, they hate it when I say that, but that's the way it is. We're rounding the corner on the pandemic and we've done a phenomenal job, not just a good job. A phenomenal job. ACOSTA (voice-over): The president is increasingly isolated in his own echo chamber when it comes to the virus, with top advisers falsely telling the public COVID-19 is under control.
LARRY KUDLOW, WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC ADVISER: The USA is in a much better position thankfully. We've regained control of the virus, both the cases and the fatalities.
ACOSTA (voice-over): But that's not true. Economic adviser Larry Kudlow said something similar in February.
KUDLOW: We have contained this. I won't say air tight, but pretty close to air tight.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Democrat Joe Biden is trying to convince voters it's time for a new president to crush the virus.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Trump panicked. The virus was too big for him. He just wasn't up to it. He froze.
ACOSTA (voice-over): With 43 days until the election, the president is hoping to galvanize conservatives by seizing on the sudden opening at the Supreme Court left by the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
TRUMP: I'd rather have it before the election.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Mr. Trump is dismissing Ginsburg's dying wish that her seat be filled by the winner of the 2020 election, falsely claiming that's a phony plea cooked up by Democrats.
TRUMP: I don't know that she said that or was that written out by Adam Schiff and Schumer and Pelosi. I would be more inclined to the second, okay, you know, that came out of the wind it sounds so beautiful.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff fired back. "Mr. President, this is low even for you." Sources tell CNN the top two favorites for the open seat appear to be Judges Amy Coney Barrett and Barbara Lagoa, both appointed by Mr. Trump.
Barrett is revered by conservatives and seen as reliably anti-abortion while Lagoa would give Mr. Trump the chance to place a Latino on the high court.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): This Senate will vote on this nomination this year.
ACOSTA (voice-over): But the issue puts Republicans in a tight spot as they blocked former President Barack Obama's selection of Merrick Garland for an open seat in 2016, complaining it was an election year. Now some of those same lawmakers face accusations of hypocrisy.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I want you to use my words against me. If there is a Republican president in 2016 and a vacancy occurs in the last year of the first term, you can say Lindsey Graham said let's let the next president whoever it might be make that nomination. And you can use my words against me and you'd be absolutely right. ACOSTA (voice-over): Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala
Harris argues the solution is to wait.
KAMALA HARRIS (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Whoever is elected should be making a decision about who sits on the United States Supreme Court, period.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Besides abortion rights, a new more conservative Supreme Court could also strike down Obamacare, even though the president has yet to produce his own health care plan.
TRUMP: I do want to say that we are going to be introducing a tremendous health care plan sometime, hopefully, prior to the end of the month. It's just about completed now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA (on camera): Now selecting a new Supreme Court justice before the election could be risky for the president. A GOP source close to the process said some aides to the president and some republican lawmakers worry that ramming through a new justice could backfire with voters costing the party both the White House and the Senate at the same time as this source put it, as much as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is fixated on the Supreme Court, he cares about his majority in the Senate much more than that. Wolf?
BLITZER: The stakes clearly are enormous right now. Jim Acosta at the White House, thank you very much. Let's discuss all of this with the journalist Bob Woodward. His new book about the Trump presidency is entitled "Rage." A very important bombshell book -- there you see the book cover, a true bestseller already.
Bob, thanks very much for joining us. I want to get to coronavirus first, which has been so awful.
BOB WOODWARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Thank you.
BLITZER: The death toll now about to reach 200,000 Americans in only seven months.
[17:10:02]
And as you've just heard, President Trump gives himself an A-plus for his response. You had this exchange with him back in July. Let me play it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
WOODWARD: So, what grade do you give yourself on the virus for the last six, seven months?
TRUMP: Other than the public relations, which is impossible because it's a fake media, fake. They're fake. I know you -- like, I think you do agree.
WOODWARD: Yes, I do. TRUMP: Okay. Other than the fact that I've been unable to solve --
WOODWARD: So what's the grade, sir?
TRUMP: -- the media on treating us fairly, I give ourselves an A, but the grade is incomplete, and I'll tell you why. If we come up with the vaccines and therapeutics, then I give myself an A-plus.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BLITZER: Now, Bob, nearly 60,000 Americans have died between that interview you had and today, but he still gives himself an A-plus. In fact, more people have died in the United States over these past seven months than any other country in the world. So, what is he talking about?
WOODWARD: Well, quite frankly, Wolf, it's embarrassing. It's so sad. Anyone who has touched this, anyone who had the responsibility, and he had the largest responsibility in our country. As I discovered in my reporting for the book, it was January 28th.
Let me take you to that moment. His National Security adviser Robert O'Brien said to him something absolutely stunning. The virus is going to be the biggest national security threat to your presidency. The deputy, Matt Pottinger, backed him up.
Pottinger had been a reporter in China for seven years during the 2003 SARS epidemic, and developed sources and he had gone back to his sources as the White House deputy national security adviser, and he had the best medical sources possible. I happen to know who one of them is.
And it was laid out to the president that the situation with the virus was a coming pandemic. It was going to be like the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, 675,000 people died in that pandemic. It looks, unfortunately, like --
BLITZER: In the United States. Millions more died overseas, in the U.S., yes.
WOODWARD: In the United States, yes 50 million -- 50 million people, all the details were laid out to the president. He understood. He asked questions. Pottinger told all of this to Tony Fauci, Dr. Fauci, the expert on this.
As I report in the book, Fauci thought that Pottinger was being extreme and was not really credible on this. And then when the pandemic exploded in March, I quote Fauci saying, oh, my god, Matt was right.
BLITZER: Yes.
WOODWARD: So, this is -- the president sits in this unique position of getting top-secret national security intelligence briefings and briefings from the doctors separately. He's the only person who has the whole picture. It's very clear from what he told me, he understood it.
He was quite -- we played the tape of this conversation. And for him to say two months ago that he gets an A or an A-plus, and then now he's saying he gets an a-plus, that is so tragic.
That is a failure -- a failure on his part to exercise the two pillars of responsibility a president has, first to protect the people. He told me, that's the job of the president. Number two, to tell the truth to the people. He failed on that. It is one of the most -- it is going to, in history, be one of the moments and episodes where the presidency failed.
BLITZER: Yes. And he goes further because in your last interview with the president, and he was speaking on the record and you taped those conversations. The last interview you did with him in August, he said, and I'm quoting now, "Nothing more could have been done."
[17:15:00]
Did you get any insight into why the president believes that nothing more -- a lot more could've been done? We know he's laser focusing right now on a vaccine. He's dismissing some of the resources that have been around all these months wearing a mask, testing, and social distancing. How can he say nothing more could have been done?
WOODWARD: Well, what is very clear to me, and it was in March when he told me, I always play it down, I always play it down because I don't want to create a panic. The saddest part of this, Wolf, is that he does not understand the people he governs. If you tell the American people the truth, as Franklin Roosevelt did, say, two days after Pearl Harbor, one of his famous fireside chats.
You should play it on the air because it is mind blowing because Roosevelt said all the news is bad, I'm telling you the worst, you, the American people, and I know you will not lose heart. I know you realize that this is a moment where our very existence as a country is in doubt. This is in December 1941.
And we know what the American people did. And Roosevelt led us to victory in that war in so many ways. Trump thinks that somehow people -- the American people are going to panic. I think it's just the opposite. And we saw even in 9/11 in this century when George W. Bush stood up and said, we've been hit, we're going to hit them back.
The American public rallied around him, the Congress did. It was one of the glorious moments in American history. And Trump could've had another glorious moment by being truthful.
BLITZER: After the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention updated its guidance on Friday to acknowledge airborne transmission of the coronavirus, all of a sudden it backtracked today, Bob, saying that that had been posted in error. But here's what the president told you more than seven months ago. Let me play the exchange.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
WOODWARD: And so what was President Xi saying yesterday?
TRUMP: We were talking mostly about the virus. And I think he's going to have it in good shape, but, you know, it's a very tricky situation. It goes through air, Bob. That's always tougher than the touch. You know, the touch you don't have to touch things, right? But the air, you just breathe the air and that's how it's passed.
And so that's a very tricky one. That's a very delicate one. It's also more deadly than your, you know, even your strenuous flus. You know, people don't realize we lose 25,000, 30,000 people a year here. Who would ever think that, right?
WOODWARD: I know. It's much forgotten.
TRUMP: I mean, pretty amazing. And then I say, well, is that the same thing?
WOODWARD: What are you able to do for --
TRUMP: This is more deadly. This is 5, you know, 5 percent versus 1 percent and less than 1 percent, you know. So, this is deadly stuff.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, are you concerned, Bob, by the messaging or perhaps, shall I say, the lack of messaging coming out of the CDC right now? This is extraordinary. They say one thing on Friday and then all of a sudden they say the opposite.
WOODWARD: Again, who knows what's happening. But it has been a constant theme in all of this that airborne transmission is the problem with this virus. I've talked to some of the leading experts in this country, including Dr. Fauci. And it is why Robert Redfield, who heads the CDC, this week, testified that it's the mask that's more important than some sort of vaccine.
So, airborne transmission is the issue again. Last week, Trump was trying to meddle with what Dr. Redfield said. I know Dr. Redfield. This is a man who's devoted his life to medicine, to protecting the country. His organization is responsible to determine the causes of these health threats in our country, and he's done -- talked to anyone over decades, a magnificent job.
And then the president comes out and says, oh, I talked to Redfield and he was confused, he didn't know what he was talking about.
[17:24:58]
Unfortunately, as people know and people who know Redfield, said that's absurd. Redfield was under oath and talking and he held the mask up and said this is something -- this is, in a sense, your path out of this pandemic. And here the president calls and says Dr. Redfield was confused. It's absurd. It's tragic.
BLITZER: Yes. It was and extraordinary -- it was totally extraordinary for the president of the United States to publicly rebuke the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as he did with Dr. Redfield.
And by the way, a few days later, he publicly rebuked Christopher Wray, the FBI director for suggesting that Russia is directly trying to interfere in the 2020 presidential election. The president rebuked him as well. We're going to get to that.
But on the coronavirus, Bob, you've been reporting on President Trump from the start of this pandemic. Now as we head into the fall, cases once again seem to be heading in the wrong direction. Based on what you've seen, what you've heard in reporting for your amazing book, what is your biggest fear for this fall and winter?
WOODWARD: That the train is moving. And as the doctors have said, Dr. Fauci and others, said, look, we are going to collide with, and there's going to be a convergence with the regular flu. And so we're going to have more and more cases, the hospitals could be clogged.
And this is the real fact here that is so embarrassing to our country, so sad for our country. We have a president who will not even say let's everyone wear a mask. He still says it's optional, oh, it would be a nice thing to do.
Suppose you're somebody, Wolf, out there, who, average person and you have kids. Should I send them to school? Can I go to the grocery store? What are the rules? And we have a president running around as he told me, he said I always downplayed the virus. And then last week he's saying he up played it. I don't know what that word is. I get the idea. It's not in the scrabble dictionary.
And so is it -- is he downplaying? Is he up-playing? He has said about my book, first, he said it's a political hit job. Then on Fox News he was asked, is the book accurate? And Trump said, oh, its okay, its fine. And then he starts running around saying, oh, I said some great things in this book. That's because I let him have his say.
Twenty percent of the book are quotes from him. He allowed me, to his credit, to my good fortune, to interview him repeatedly. He would call -- Wolf, you've done your job for decades. Have you ever interviewed somebody for nine hours continuously where you can prepare your questions, where you can go back to the issues, where you can say, oh, now race is a big issue in this country.
Mr. President, what do you think about race? And we went through that. We've gone through the Supreme Court. We've gone through every subject. And you can get this window into his mind. But on the virus, it is something, I will be honest with you, it makes me shudder that we are so vulnerable.
And he, even today, it would be sad that it would come so late. He could say, now wait a minute, I have been -- I've seen the light on this. I have responsibility, wear a mask, let's do the things that we need to do and we're going to, as I talked with him in April, I spent almost an hour going through the things that needed to be done to get control of the virus.
And I said, with people I was talking to, want full mobilization, want something like the Manhattan Project that Franklin Roosevelt launched to build the atomic bomb. And Trump, oh, yes, we went through it. I said how about testing? How about international cooperation? How about all of the other things that need to be done?
And we stepped through this, and at the end he said did you write those down? And I said, yes, I did. He said, okay, read them again.
[17:25:00]
Almost like maybe he was taking them down. He had somebody else take them down, but we still do not have -- that was April 5th. We now have no full mobilization. We have no Manhattan-like project, which is exactly what we need.
BLITZER: Yes. And he says there's nothing more he could have done. We're about to hit an awful number, 200,000 Americans dead over these past seven months. And if you compare that with South Korea for example as we often have, we had the first deaths around the same time South Korea, a country of 55 million people had their first deaths.
We're about to lose 200,000 Americans. South Korea has lost about 400 South Koreans over these past seven months. They were engaged in a lot more testing, contact tracing, stuff that we didn't do barely at all, and as a result there's a lot more that could have been done. Bob, I need you to stand by. We're going to continue this conversation. There's a lot more we need to discuss.
WOODWARD: Thank you.
BLITZER: Up next, Senate Republicans say they're ready to move quickly on President Trump's Supreme Court nominee. The president says he hopes to announce his pick by Saturday. We'll discuss with Bob Woodward when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:30:34]
BLITZER: We're back with Bob Woodward, the author of the new book, "Rage", a huge bestseller already. Bob the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme Court Justice leaves the country in a truly extraordinary situation right now with only 43 days until the November 3 election. Mitch McConnell, the Senate Majority Leader just vowed on the Senate floor that President Trump's nominee will get a vote in the Senate before the end of the year. How likely is it that McConnell will keep Republicans united and deliver that confirmation for the President?
WOODWARD: It's quite likely because we know McConnell knows how to muscle his caucus of Republicans. Some have said they would not vote for this, so it's going to depend on the wisdom and conscience of two or three or four Republican senators.
BLITZER: McConnell defended his decision not to bring Merrick Garland's nomination to the floor during an election year four years ago claiming the circumstances are different now. Do you buy that argument at all?
WOODWARD: Well, people have said that it's hypocrisy in the part of McConnell. Now, McConnell -- Look, he made it very clear with the Obama appointment. He did not want him to get the Merrick Garland in very respected judge on the D.C. Court of Appeals. Somebody who is maybe a little bit to the left, but a very solid respected, probably, the sort of person we should have on the Supreme Court.
McConnell used his political muscle of the majority, people didn't like it. It's not quite frankly, hypocrisy for them -- for him, McConnell, to say, OK, look, now we've got a Republican Trump appointee, I'm going to be totally behind it. People -- a lot of people don't like it. It's kind of unseemly. It's raw, political power play --
BLITZER: Yes.
WOODWARD: -- by McConnell. Now, we've seen those power plays in Washington, they're not unique. The question here really is -- I mean, think about it. These two women, the prime candidates, apparently, are age 48, age 52. If they get through and go to the court, and if they live as long is Ruth Bader Ginsburg, they will be on the court for 35 years.
BLITZER: Yes.
WOODWARD: That's not just going to change the Supreme Court. It's going to change America.
BLITZER: Yes. And for the next -- Yes, these are lifetime appointments, and they will have an enormous impact on what is happening in the United States of America. The President actually spoke to you about McConnell's single mindedness when it comes to the issue of judicial nominations. I want to play another exchange you have.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know what Mitch's biggest thing is in the whole world? His judges.
WOODWARD: Yes. And then --
TRUMP: If I have 10 ambassadors, and a judge can take long to get approved, you know, which I guess is probably right. Should be, right?
WOODWARD: Yes, sir.
TRUMP: He will absolutely ask me, please, let's get the judge approved instead of 10 ambassadors. You know, the Democrats put up roadblocks at every single step. But we don't need -- like on vacancies, on people vacancies, we don't need thousands of people going to the State Department.
We've got thousands and thousands of people. It's so ridiculous. And then they'll say he doesn't have as many as somebody else. I don't them.
WOODWARD: OK. Here's my policy --
TRUMP: Mitch's big thing is judges. Biggest --
WOODWARD: I understand, and listen, you've got --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Bob, does President Trump essentially get a free pass on other issues if he pushes ahead with these federal judges?
WOODWARD: A free pass from whom, Wolf?
BLITZER: From his base. From the conservative Republicans. For them, this is so, so critically important. And they'll ignore a whole bunch of other things they might not like about him, but the Supreme Court clearly is critical.
WOODWARD: Well, it certainly, but I quote Jim Mattis, who was the Secretary of Defense, the first two years for Trump, I quote him in the book saying something that I thought quite interesting and true.
[17:35:13]
Mattis said, Trump supporters believe in him, even if they don't believe what he says, they believe in him. And I think that's true. I think Trump hit a chord in 2016. I've talked to Trump at length about this, that Trump kind of seized history's clock at that moment.
The Republican Party and the Democratic Party didn't realize what was going on in our country. Lots of people felt alienated from the elite, you and me. And a lot of people in our business went out and said, remember, what did Hillary call these people? The intolerables. And we didn't spend enough time, and I put myself at the head of that list, understanding the Trump voter.
BLITZER: Yes.
WOODWARD: I'm trying to understand the Trump voter and I think it's critical. These people they have -- they latched on to Trump and Trump knows that they're going to follow him. And it's very much a mistake, like some of our fellow columnist will say, if you don't agree with us about Trump's weaknesses and faults, you somehow are not a decent person.
The Trump voters I know are very, very decent people. And we've got to get off our high horse and kind of say, OK, what's going on with you? What were -- What do you believe in? What do you think? And not -- as I've said many times, Katharine Graham told Carl Bernstein and myself, after Nixon resigned, she said, I'm going to give you some advice. Beware the demon pomposity.
There's too much pomposity in our business. Lots of other businesses, politics, Wall Street, you name it, it doesn't work in our interest to get information out to people if we are pompous in doing so. BLITZER: Nixon was the first president you reported on with Carl Bernstein, and now Trump you're reporting extensively on. Compare these two presidents for a moment, if you don't mind?
WOODWARD: Well, it's hard. Clearly, Nixon was a criminal. And he would never talk to Carl or myself before he resigned, after he resigned and, you know, and that's fine. What -- Somebody from the New York Times joke that all these interviews with Trump, in my book, it's if Nixon had mailed or FedExed all of the Nixon tapes, his own tapes, and the things he said about covering up and breaking the law as if he'd FedExed them to me.
We -- comparing, that's for the historians, for the reporter, quite frankly, it's to find out what happened and that was my focus. I had the luxury of time to do so in this book.
BLITZER: You know, you conclude the book, on the very last page with these words, something you've never done before and reporting on all these American presidents over these decades. You write this about the President. When his performance as president is taken in its entirety, I can only reach one conclusion. Trump is the wrong man for the job. So why did you decide to break with your tradition as a journalist and write that, shall we call an editorial comment?
WOODWARD: Well, it's a judgment. In my earlier book on Trump, I said that the Trump presidency is going through a nervous breakdown. That's pretty much saying he's not doing a very good job. But on this book, I had overwhelming evidence not just from him, but from others in the administration. So, I was able to chart in great detail the chronology.
And, in a way, the book is about truth. And is I got to writing the epilogue, the last sentence it just came out. Well, he's the wrong man for the job. And then I consulted my wife Elsa and my research assistants, Evelyn Duffy and Steve Riley, and I said, what do you think? And they said, look, you're writing a book about truth.
[17:40:11]
You believe that you can't run from the truth. So I decided to leave it in. And I've had many people say to me, if I didn't leave it in, they would be after me for failing to come clean with the conclusion. And as we all know, there's so many, particularly Republican senators, I know, who realize that Trump is the wrong man for the job, and they will not stand up for that in public and speak the truth. And I think that's part of the real tragedy of what we're going through right now in this country.
BLITZER: You know, just moments ago, the President was asked who he thinks poison the Russian opposition leader, Alexei Navalny. And he actually refused to respond. And you report in the book that Dan Coats, the former Director of National Intelligence who worked for President Trump, he became more and more convinced that Vladimir Putin did indeed have something on the President.
He couldn't find another explanation for the President's behavior in -- when it comes to defending Putin and the Russians. It's an extraordinary exchange. It's an extraordinary bit of reporting you have in the book. How do you see it? Do you see any other explanation other than what Dan Coats suggested?
WOODWARD: Well, Dan Coats is the number one intelligence officer, somebody who'd been a Republican senator from Indiana for 16 years. One of Mike Pence's closest friends, an evangelical Christian. For -- Coats went through all the intelligence, the deep cover sources, the intercepts, everything, he had his people to see if they could find something. They found no evidence and no proof.
At the same time, Coats could not check the conclusion because of Trump's repeated behavior and deference to Putin that went beyond rational presidential decision-making. But in fairness to Trump, even Coats has no proof. But Coats left that job when, of course, Trump pre-emptively fired him while Coats and his wife were on one of Trumps golf courses plane and his security ran up and said, here -- your chief of staff wants to talk to you, Mr. Director. The chief of staff came on and said, The New York Times is reporting you've been fired.
And, again, this is the cruel treatment of people that Trump brought into senior positions, like Mattis, like Coast, like Rex Tillerson, the Secretary of State. I charted out exactly how all were on the verge of retirement. People, indeed, not perfect, but devoted public servants. Trump made the call said, I want you, we're going to have a special relationship, here's my phone number. And then they got on and he just, you know, rammed them down in a way that is unthinkable.
BLITZER: Yes.
WOODWARD: You know, he said of Tillerson, he says dumb is a rock. Who ever talked that way in public after they have fired somebody summarily that they brought out of -- anyway, I mean, this --
BLITZER: Yes.
WOODWARD: You lay out all of these things in this behavior. And as you can see, my conclusion that Trump is the wrong man for the job is obvious and perhaps understated.
BLITZER: Yes, I'll never forget the way the President humiliated Dan Coats the Director of National Intelligence in Helsinki at that summit with Putin. I happen to have been in Helsinki covering it. And he said he sided with Putin, as opposed to the Director of National Intelligence. It was an incredible moment.
A few weeks ago, I interviewed the Attorney General of the United States, Bill Barr, and he bolstered the President's claim that China is a greater threat than Russia when it comes to election interference going into this 2020 election. In the past week or so, Barr has compared coronavirus lockdowns to slavery, he's compared his own career prosecutors to pre-schoolers. What do you make of the Attorney General Bill Barr? Have you ever seen anything like this before?
WOODWARD: Well, when Bill Barr was Attorney General for George W. -- for George Herbert Walker Bush, somewhat, you know, more than two decades ago, I knew him and he was a very straight shooter, somebody who would answer questions, and I don't know what's happened here.
[17:45:22]
It is, again, another embarrassing chapter in the Trump presidency 2020. If you had somebody working for you, you want independent, strong advice, you want people who are going to stand up to you. And there was a point where Barr stood up to Trump in public and said some of the things Trump is saying, are making -- this is Barr speaking, making it impossible for me to do my job. But now he's just playing along with some of the things, Barr's too smart. He has to know that this is shameful behavior on his part. He should not do that.
That's not what the Attorney -- the Attorney General can be somebody who can really help a president by going privately to the president and say, hey, look, you know, we got to get in line on this, we have to do our job, which is law enforcement instead of erecting some sort of political wall for the President.
How sad, how sad. And you can go through the sad characters who've been aligned with the President on all of these. And then you can go to the characters who just said, like Dan Coats, or Jim Mattis or Tillerson who said, you know, I'm not going to be pushed around, I'm not going to compromise myself for this man.
BLITZER: It's a really an amazing development, indeed. And I think I want to thank you on behalf of all of our viewers here in the U.S. and around the world, in fact, all of our readers, Bob, thanks for writing this book. Once again, it's entitled "Rage". There you see the book cover. It's a huge, huge bestseller, as it should be, as all of Bob's books are.
Bob, thanks so much for joining us. Good luck.
WOODWARD: Thank you. Thank you.
BLITZER: And stay safe out there.
I want to bring in our political, legal and medical experts to discuss the breaking news as well as what we just heard from Bob Woodward. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, you're first. The idea that we would see 200,000 deaths from this virus, it was unimaginable at the start of this pandemic, back in February, shall we say. So what stands out to you from Bob Woodward's reporting on how the Trump administration, the President of the United States specifically, has handled all of this and what this means for this ongoing crisis?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Though (ph), Wolf. I think from the interview you just did with Bob Woodward, I was really struck by the fact that the President, you know, says that it's an A grade, the United States response to that (ph).
BLITZER: He said A+.
GUPTA: I mean, you know, A plus if there's a vaccine, he said. I mean, you know, the thing about it is, as you correctly pointed out, Wolf, I mean, there are other countries to which to compare this response, you know. South Korea, you brought up because the first patient was diagnosed around the same time our first patient was diagnosed, so you have some correlation there.
And, you know, there about a seventh the size of us, but have had fewer than 500 people who have died. They don't have a vaccine, they don't have any kind of therapeutic or something we don't have, they just implemented public health measures early and they were consistent.
I mean, there was, you know, sort of several things that Bob Woodward brought up. But this thing about, you know, in the beginning, the President, knowing how significant this was, knowing that it was far more lethal than the flu. And even saying in February, that there was evidence of airborne transmission. Frankly, you know, a lot of the scientists didn't really catch up to that, until sort of May, June, when you started to see a lot of literature.
I think it's pretty clear now that this can spread through the air, not just through respiratory droplets, but through the air. And, you know, so there was a lot of things I think, in that interview that clearly, Bob Woodward pointed out, the President knew and when he knew those things.
BLITZER: Yes, he's truly an amazing journalist, amazing reporter.
Jamie Gangel, and you've been doing your excellent work for us as well. Woodward concludes that the President is the wrong man for the job. But as we heard today, President Trump gives himself an A plus on his handling of this virus. So, what does that tell you?
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: It has to be -- the polite thing to say would be magical thinking. I don't -- I can't imagine how 200,000 were -- we've almost lost 200,000 Americans. These are not numbers. These are peoples, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, children. How is that an A plus.
[17:50:01]
How is still mocking masks an A plus? How is the fact that we don't have sufficient testing or tracing an A plus? And I think what I find sort of most horrifying about this is, here we are in September 21st, and there is no plan that the President has going forward to change any of this. He has Trump facts. Somehow he thinks this is what's going to get him elected on November 3rd. And the number of people we've lost simply doesn't seem to matter to have him.
BLITZER: You know, Gloria, when it comes to the President's push to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the U.S. Supreme Court, how revealing are those interviews with Bob Woodward? Is it crystal clear to the President how important these nominations are to his own re-election? Chances is a politics that's at play right now?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure. It is. I think what was really revealing in the Woodward interviews was that the President completely understands what Mitch McConnell is about. Mitch McConnell is about keeping his majority in the Senate and getting judges on the bench, in particular now, a Supreme Court Justice, and he can't do that without his majority.
And the President was saying, you know, tell them we got to confirm ambassadors, and McConnell says, no, no, no, no, no, do the judges first, because McConnell understands that that is not the short play. That is the long play. And that's what Mitch McConnell is in this for.
The President, on the other hand, is in this for the short play, which is the election. And so, the President sees, as we saw in Bob's book, and in other books, the President, everything is transactional, everything is about winning. And so, we'll see who -- whom he appoints. He believes that in 2016, when there was a debate over the next Supreme Court nominee after Scalia's death, and he came out with his list, et cetera, that that really helped him and I think he was right. So, I think he believes that it will help him again this time to push a conservative justice, which he will do.
I'm not so sure he's right about it. We don't know how it's going to play this time. We don't know whether it will mobilize the Democrats and young voters as much as it would mobilize evangelicals and conservatives. But this is what the President is thinking about. It's always on his mind.
BLITZER: It certainly is. You know, Laura Coates, you heard that context from Bob Woodward. Do you think Americans realize the extent to which this effort by President Trump and the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is reshaping the judicial system as a whole because the impact is going to go on for years and, shall we say decades, these are lifetime appointments?
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: What they didn't know before, they certainly know now with that interview and the revelations, and particularly knowing that most people focus on lifetime appointments, they think of the Supreme Court of the United States. But the federal judiciary, the federal bench is as important if not more, because the overwhelming majority of cases never reached the Judicial Nine, they stay within those so called lower court. So if you're packing those courts, you're going to guarantee far more widespread and pervasive victories.
On the other hand, you're talking about the President who's now keenly aware as he was then about compartmentalizing on behalf of the voters, those who are willing to sort of take the good and the bad as long as there is going to be that long game that Gloria is speaking about.
The singular focus of McConnell to focus and fixate on the judicial bench, and not being able to take that away is the part that I think people are willing to say, well, voters who want Trump to be an office are willing to say, we'll compartmentalize, we'll sort of keep going through the process disdainful of other things and pro-clutching. But as long as I'm going to have a conservative bend towards what should be and objective bench, I'm OK with it.
That's a very scary thing, given that judges wear that robe, because they're supposed to be objective, not bringing their personal and religious beliefs with them to the bench only what the law says BLITZER: And very quickly, Sanjay, getting back to the coronavirus. Is there one thing, one mistake that was made here in the United States over these past seven months that has resulted in, right now, nearly 200,000 American deaths?
GUPTA: Well, you know, the biggest mistakes are the ones that happen early, because when the virus could have been contained, you could have, you know, really prevented it from having this sort of significant spread that was largely undetected. And I think that really goes back to February, Wolf. There was the testing that was put out by the CDC, it didn't work. You know, there were problem with that testing.
And as you pointed out, many pointed out, we've lost that month of February, it was such a contagious virus. It really got out of control at that point and we really have not been able to contain it since then.
BLITZER: Yes. We weren't doing things that the South Koreans were doing and the results are so, so painful.
[17:55:02]
Everybody standby, we're going to continue to follow the breaking news. The U.S. now on the brink of 200,000 coronavirus deaths. Much more of our special coverage right here in THE SITUATION ROOM when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
