Return to Transcripts main page

The Situation Room

Dr. Fauci Says He's Not Surprised President Trump Got COVID-19; Trump On Rally Blitz As U.S. Sees Surge In COVID Cases; Anthony Fauci Says He Will Take COVID-19 Vaccine If Approved By The FDA; Interview With DNC Chair Tom Perez About Election Turnout; New Video Appears To Show Michigan Suspects In Training; The Legacy Of First Lady Nancy Reagan. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 18, 2020 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:45]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. This is a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM.

And we begin this hour with a very blunt assessment from the nation's leading infectious disease expert. We're talking about Dr. Anthony Fauci. He now says it doesn't come as a shock to him at all that President Trump was diagnosed with COVID-19. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JONATHAN LAPOOK, CBS HOST, "60 MINUTES": Were you surprised that President Trump got sick?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Absolutely not. I was worried that he was going to get sick when I saw him in a completely precarious situation of crowded, no separation between people and almost nobody wearing a mask. When I saw that on TV, I said, oh, my goodness. Nothing good can come out of that. That's got to be a problem. And then sure enough, it turned out to be a super spreader event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Dr. Fauci also said it doesn't make any sense at all why President Trump equates wearing a mask with weakness. His very stark comments come as serious concern grows over a very disturbing rise in coronavirus cases across the country.

Just take a look at this map. Only two states in the U.S. are not reporting spikes. Those states, Missouri and Vermont. Yesterday alone, the U.S. reported more than 57,000 new infections worldwide. Total cases are approaching 40 million. Experts say this is the fall surge they have been warning about for many months.

But despite these horrible numbers, President Trump ignores the advice of even his own Coronavirus Task Force. He is going out there on the campaign trail from coast to coast. Take a look at some live pictures coming in from a rally he's holding in Carson City, Nevada.

Joining us now, Dr. Ashish Jha, the dean of the Brown University School of Public Health, CNN medical analyst Dr. Celine Gounder, she also hosts the "American Diagnosis and Epidemic" podcast. Also with us CNN's Ryan Nobles. He's covering the president at that rally in Nevada.

Dr. Jha, you know Dr. Fauci. Are you surprised to hear him speak out so bluntly about the president right now that he was not surprised at all that the president came down with coronavirus?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Wolf, thank you for having me on. You know, I am not surprised. Dr. Fauci is somebody who always speaks his mind. Abd when asked a direct question, he will tell you what he is thinking. And what he was thinking is what all of us have been thinking for months, which is, we have been surprised the president didn't get infected earlier given the poor sort of protections they had around him. And of course, you know, Dr. Fauci is just telling us what everybody I think already knew.

BLITZER: Let me -- Dr. Gounder, hold on for a moment. I want to go to Ryan Nobles. He's on the scene for us.

Tell us a little bit about the timing of what's going on right now. All of a sudden, 16 days before the election, we hear from Dr. Fauci speaking rather bluntly.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is pretty interesting, Wolf. And, you know, as of late, President Trump has attempted to distance himself somewhat from Dr. Fauci. He's always been careful to not directly criticize Anthony Fauci because he certainly has a lot of confidence from the American people. But I was at a rally with President Trump a couple of days ago in North Carolina. He accused Dr. Fauci of being a Democrat.

He also said that, you know, he doesn't necessarily agree with Fauci's assessment on a lot of these big topics that have a lot of agreement across a wide spectrum of the scientific community. And just a few minutes ago at this rally here, President Trump specifically attacked, you know, the steps that Democratic governors in many states have taken and even Republican governors have taken to stop the spread of the coronavirus, the lockdowns and restrictions they put in place.

And President Trump even said, he almost mocked people that tell him that he should follow the lead of scientists. He said, if I followed the lead of scientists, then I would have driven this country into a massive depression. So it seems, you know, as these cases coronavirus cases continue to rise, even after the president himself has contracted the coronavirus pandemic, he still doesn't seem to be getting the full picture as to just how serious this virus is -- Wolf.

[20:05:08]

BLITZER: I want to play some more of what Dr. Fauci just said on "60 Minutes." He was asked about the Trump campaign ad that totally misrepresented him as praising the president for his pandemic response. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: I do not and nor will I ever publicly endorse any political candidate. And here I am, they're sticking me right in the middle of a campaign ad, which I thought was outrageous. I was referring to something entirely different. I was referring to the grueling work of the task force that, God, we were knocking ourselves out seven days a week. I don't think we could possibly have done any more than that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did the steam start to come out of your ears?

FAUCI: No, it did. Quite frankly, I got really ticked off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Dr. Gounder, from what you know of Dr. Fauci, Dr. Jha knows him, I know him, and I assume you him well. How big of a breach of personal ethics was this for him?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I think Dr. Fauci is one of the most circumspect people I have ever spoken to when it comes to politics. He is very careful with his words. And frankly, I am surprised in contrast to Dr. Jha that he is even saying what he is saying now about being surprised or not being surprised that the president came down with coronavirus. He is very careful not to take sides politically, to stick with the science. And so I do understand his frustration with being thrust in the middle of a political situation when that's really what he tries to avoid.

BLITZER: You know, Dr. Jha, the president, I want you to respond to this because he's continuing to hold, even as we speak, these large in-person campaign rallies, people are packed in. No social distancing at all. Most of these people not wearing masks. Three this weekend alone, his campaign Web site shows many more are planned over the next 16 days. Potentially, correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Jha, endangering many thousands of Americans out there.

What goes through your mind when you see these images?

JHA: Yes, Wolf, it's just a level of carelessness and a level of sort of lack of regard for his own supporters. What we know is that people who have attended these rallies have gotten infected, have gotten sick. Many of them have been hospitalized. And you would think that the president would care about that, I mean, care about his own supporters and protecting them. He doesn't. And it baffles me. It has baffled me from the beginning. And it continues to baffle me.

You'd think if all -- if nothing else, that he would at least care about the people who are such fervent supporters of him and his agenda.

BLITZER: I want to play a little bit more of what Dr. Fauci said just now, his analysis of the president's belief in science. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LAPOOK: Do you find it at all ironic that the president, who has not always consistently followed the advice of public health officials and scientists, seems to have been made better by science?

FAUCI: Well, I don't think it's ironic. I think it's fortunate that the president of the United States benefitted from science. You know, I think deep down, he believes in science. If he didn't, he would not have entrusted his health to the very competent physicians at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

LAPOOK: But at the same time, he hasn't worn masks consistently.

FAUCI: Yes, but --

LAPOOK: He's pushed back against things you've said.

FAUCI: See, I think that's less anti-science than it's more a statement.

LAPOOK: What kind of a statement?

FAUCI: You know, a statement of strength, like we're strong, we don't need a mask, that kind of thing. He sometimes equates wearing a mask with weakness.

LAPOOK: Does that make sense to you?

FAUCI: No, it doesn't. Of course not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let me get Dr. Gounder's reaction to that. What do you think?

GOUNDER: Well, Wolf, it would be like saying our troops in Afghanistan don't need body armor, our police don't need bulletproof vests. Does that make you weaker as a policeman? That you're not wearing a bulletproof vest or is that just recognizing the risk of the job inherent to the job, and that you're just taking the right steps to protect yourself?

You know, I think that's really a nonsensical kind of perspective to say that wearing masks doesn't work, won't protect you, because we know for a fact masks are probably the number one, two and three most important things you could do to prevent the spread of coronavirus.

BLITZER: Let me ask Ryan Nobles, he's there out in Nevada at this rally, what are we hearing from the president on this day, Ryan, about coronavirus? What's his message?

NOBLES: Well, Wolf, his big message is that he feels as though the steps that many local governments have taken to restrict people's movements to stop the spread of the virus has been too much. He attacked Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. He attacked the governor of Nevada, who's also a Democrat. And he suggested that his advice on how to handle this, which is basically just to open the country back up, makes more sense than the advice that scientists have given.

Take a listen to what the president just said.

[20:10:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you vote for Biden, he will surrender your jobs to China. He will surrender your future to the virus. He's going to lock down. Just wants to lock down. He'll listen to the scientists.

If I listened totally to the scientists, we would right now have a country that would be in a massive depression instead of -- we're like a rocket ship. Take a look at the numbers. And that's despite the fact that we have like five or six of these Democrats keeping their states closed because they're trying to hurt us on November 3rd. But the numbers are so good anyway. They'd be even better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So what's interesting about the president's response to this, Wolf, is that, you know, there are scientists that argue that if the president had taken these more aggressive steps early on, that perhaps the economy would have opened at a much quicker rate and that might have benefitted him more politically. Even the simple advice of asking people to wear a mask might have actually helped him our politically and helped the economy out.

So even his rationale, his thinking, which he often says that the cure cannot be worse than the virus itself, doesn't really make all that much sense if you listen to the Dr. Faucis of the world and you listened to the other doctors that have talked about this.

And I also have to tell you, Wolf. I know I talked to a number of voters here today, they trust the president on this. They believe that they don't need to wear a mask because he tells them that they don't need to wear a mask. And that's part of the reason why you see so many people here not wearing a mask. And you have to assume that when they go about their daily lives, they're doing the same thing -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Ryan, I want you to stand by. Dr. Gounder, please stand by. Dr. Jha, please stand by. We have more to discuss on the breaking news.

More from Dr. Anthony Fauci, what he is now saying about when he might be ready to get a vaccine to deal with coronavirus. More on the breaking news right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:15:55]

BLITZER: We're following the breaking news. Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease expert, speaking out in a brand new interview on "60 Minutes." And he also said this. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAPOOK: If the FDA says it's OK to take the vaccine, are you going to take it?

FAUCI: I'm going to look at the data upon which the FDA makes that decision. I trust the permanent professionals in the FDA. The director, the commissioner of the FDA has been very public that he will not let politics interfere. We have an advisory committee to the FDA, were made up of independent people who I trust. Put all those things together, if the final outcome is that the FDA approves it, I will take it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Important words from Dr. Fauci.

Joining us, again, Dr. Ashish Jha, the dean at the Brown University School of Public Health, and CNN Medical Analyst, Dr. Celine Gounder.

So what's your reaction, Dr. Gounder, if the FDA says the vaccine is safe and effective, would you take it?

GOUNDER: I'll be following exactly the same process as Dr. Fauci. I'll be looking at what data was submitted to the FDA to get that approval. Did they complete at least two months of follow-up after all of the doses of vaccine, in some cases it's two doses that are required? Have they conducted at least two months of follow up after that to make sure there are no adverse side effects? And is it safe and effective? And if I see all of those boxes are checked, then, yes, I would move forward and I would get the vaccine.

BLITZER: What about you, Dr. Jha?

JHA: I'd follow exactly those guidelines that Dr. Gounder just said. Look, the two-month guidance is from the FDA and the scientists there about how will we know if this vaccine is safe. If we get that, then -- and if Dr. Fauci takes it and says -- then sort of gives his stamp of approval, I think that will also help. But at the end of the day, it's going to be about the science and the data that's underlying it. And that's what I think we all need to look at.

BLITZER: Are both of you optimistic that there will be a safe and effective vaccine -- Dr. Gounder, I'll start with you -- by the end of this year?

GOUNDER: I think we will have a safe and effective vaccine. But then we're looking at a massive manufacturing and distribution problem. The Pfizer vaccine, for example, which is the one that may well get an FDA approval in late November, we're looking at maybe 50 million doses in the first batch and 100 million doses by the end of the year. But that's a vaccine that requires two doses. You have to divide that by two in terms of the number of people actually vaccinated, 25 million and 50 million by the end of the year.

There are 330 million people in the U.S. Not to mention these are vaccines that need to be refrigerated, really frozen at minus 94 degrees Fahrenheit, something that most doctor's offices can't do. So this is going to be for many, many reasons a massive logistical and manufacturing challenge.

BLITZER: It's not going to be like getting a flu shot, going to the drugstore and getting a flu shot, and going home.

You know, Dr. Jha, the -- I'm anxious to get your thoughts on that as well.

JHA: Yes, absolutely. I would not be surprised, Wolf, if we have two or three vaccines that get Emergency Use Authorization before the end of the year. I agree that the Pfizer vaccine is probably on track to be the first. But we've got Moderna, we've got J & J which I know has had a little bit of a pause. So there are others as well. And I wouldn't be surprised if we have a few.

But I completely agree with Dr. Gounder that most Americans are going to be getting vaccinated in 2021. And we're probably looking at a March-April, if things go very well, timeframe when a, let's say, large proportion of the American people get access to the vaccines.

BLITZER: Yes. But even if we do get a safe and effective vaccine, Dr. Jha, and Dr. Fauci told me a few weeks ago, even if it's 70 percent effective, which would be very good, that means, what, 30 percent of those who get the vaccine would still be possibly capable of getting coronavirus. Right?

JHA: Yes, absolutely. So let's be very clear on what a vaccine will do.

[20:20:01]

It will make a big difference. It will bring the level of infections down. It will not make this virus magically disappear. We're probably still going to be wearing masks for a while. Some of the high-risk activities will still be very difficult. I suspect a second generation or third generation of vaccines will get better on those numbers and life will start coming back through a new normal after that. But it will help a lot. Even a 70 percent or 80 percent effective vaccine will make a big difference in community transmission.

BLITZER: Certainly will. Although, I think for most of next year all of us are still going to be wearing masks.

You know, Dr. Gounder, the White House Coronavirus Task Force member Dr. Scott Atlas, he actually posted a tweet that sought to undermine the importance of facemasks. Twitter actually took the tweet down, saying their site prohibits sharing false or misleading content related to COVID-19 that potentially could lead to harm. The deleted tweet also claimed that the World Health Organization, the CDC discounted the usefulness of masks. A reminder, Dr. Atlas is a radiologist, a neuroradiologist, not an infectious disease specialist.

What's your reaction to what his allegations are about masks, especially since he seems to have the ear of the president right now? GOUNDER: Wolf, Dr. Atlas is one of the top proponents of the herd

immunity approach which would mean everybody would eventually become infected, which would mean many, many people would die as a result. And you probably would still not achieve herd immunity. We have never achieved herd immunity with a natural infection. For example, smallpox, we had in the human population for centuries, for millennia. And it took a vaccine to get to herd immunity.

Ditto for measles. You know, and so basically this is a policy, you know, being anti-mask. It's really a policy of herd immunity, which is simply just not going to work.

BLITZER: What do you think, Dr. Jha?

JHA: Yes, I thought that tweet was totally irresponsible. I flagged it early as something that was a source of disinformation, particularly disappointing coming from the White House. You know, I have to say that that kind of disinformation coming from the White House and from other sources in the government has really made it hard to fight the pandemic. Masks work. And people need to be wearing them.

BLITZER: It's not hard to put on a mask. Just wear a mask. You'll save lives out there if you do.

Dr. Ashish Jha, Dr. Gounder, thank you to both of you for joining us. Appreciate it very much.

JHA: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We're just days away from the final presidential debate. After a disastrous first debate between President Trump and Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden which ended with the president actually diagnosed with coronavirus, and the public wondering if he did in fact get tested before the debate.

We'll speak about that and more with the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Tom Perez, there you see him. He's standing by. We'll discuss what's going on when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:27:23]

BLITZER: Only 16 days to go. And according to the latest figures from the U.S. Elections Project, a turnout tracking database, more than 27 million Americans have already cast their ballots. 27 million. That's more than six times the number of votes cast by this point back in 2016.

Tom Perez is the chairman of the Democratic National Committee. He is joining us right now.

Tom, thank you so much for joining us. And as you've seen and all of us have seen these images, despite the long lines, the occasional technical glitches in some places, people are definitely showing up to vote in huge numbers already. So what does that tell you? TOM PEREZ, CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: People are

motivated. And they're motivated everywhere. You look at these numbers and they're really off the charts. You look at Wisconsin. They had about 135,000 people who voted absentee four years ago. They are already over 800,000. They're going to have about three million people vote. So they already have a quarter of the people have already voted in Wisconsin.

You go to Florida where over two million early votes have been cast. And roughly, half are Democratic ballots. And what's interesting, Wolf, about it is, people often say, well, it's not a big deal because a lot of it, those people who would have voted on election day. Well, actually that's not the case. In Florida, 350,000 of those ballots that I just mentioned that are Democratic ballots were people who didn't vote in the last two elections.

So we're seeing incredible energy. And we take nothing for granted. We know this is going to be close. But that energy that we see out there, it's everywhere. And, you know, Joe Biden is playing offense. Donald Trump is playing defense. There's energy in Texas, there's energy in Iowa, there's energy in Ohio, there's energy in Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida.

All over the map there is energy, Wolf. And we are telling everyone, make a plan. Go to iwillvote.com and get out there and vote. And that is how we win. I think we will have record turnout this year, Wolf. I have no doubt about it because our democracy as we know is on the ballot.

BLITZER: Despite the coronavirus that's out there because some people would be afraid to go wait in long lines. That is totally understandable.

Do you think that the polls, the respected public opinion polls in those key battleground states are more accurate this time than they were four years ago?

PEREZ: Well, I always tell our team, don't get on the poller-coaster. We've seen polls that are promising but the only polls that count are the polls after election day, the results after election day.

[20:30:02]

So there is not an iota of complacency on the Biden team. We are all sprinting to the finish line. We know it's going to be close. When people tell me, oh, so, you know, the vice president is up by 11, I don't believe it. And we tell people, it's going to be close. Get out there. Make sure you make a plan to vote. And people have options, Wolf. I like -- it's really important in a pandemic era that people have options on how to vote.

And I want people to exercise whatever option they want. But make sure you make a plan. And don't wait until November 2nd to make a plan. Make a plan, make it early. And then whether it's -- a lot of states, like Florida, tomorrow, in-person early voting starts. And when you have a couple weeks for in-person early voting that can help to minimize the lines. I expect there will still be lines. There's no doubt about it.

But when you do have two weeks, you can be more COVID compliant moving forward. And so we're going to continue to see this energy. People -- we're in crisis right now.

BLITZER: Yes.

PEREZ: And the reason why there's so many people voting, we're in crisis. We're a country in crisis. This president doesn't have a plan for the coronavirus. He doesn't have a plan for the economy. He doesn't have a plan to deal with the George Floyd situations. He doesn't have a plan for the climate crisis. And people want leadership that will get us out of all of these crises.

The coronavirus is the third leading cause of death in the United States right now. And the president had the audacity literally yesterday to say we've turned the corner. I don't know what corner he is talking about. Maybe it's a pentagon or an octagon. But there's about seven more corners to turn before we are going to get out of this.

BLITZER: Yes. It seems to be getting worse by the day. And if you are going to vote with a mail-in ballot, make sure you follow the instructions, the signatures and all that kind of stuff to make sure your vote really does count. So read the instructions very carefully.

There's a presidential debate as we all know, the last presidential debate will be the second. It's scheduled for Thursday night in Nashville, Tennessee. Is everything all set? Is there any doubt in your mind whether or not it will happen given some of the problems that we have seen with the first debate, the second debate was canceled after the president refused to do it virtually?

PEREZ: Well, Vice President Biden is preparing and he will follow the -- whatever the directives of the debate commission are. He certainly expects to be there. And he looks forward to it. He is going to be prepared to answer those questions. We're a country in crisis. Joe Biden has a plan to get us out of thus coronavirus. He has a plan for building back better our economy. He has a plan to make sure that we come together as a nation because people are sick and tired, Wolf, of being sick and tired.

They are sick and tired of a president who just continues to divide. And this debate is an opportunity for both candidates to make a closing argument. And, you know, the problem with President Trump is he doesn't have an argument. His closing argument in Michigan yesterday was lock her up. And that just -- that just encourages more violent extreme activity. Joe Biden has a very clear plan to get out of this, to listen to scientists, to build back our economy better.

This is not the first rodeo for Joe Biden. He came in in '09 in the middle of the Great Recession and we left to Donald Trump an economy that had the longest uninterrupted streak of private sector job growth in our history. Joe Biden has the experience to do this. And what I hear from voters is --

BLITZER: Yes. Go ahead.

PEREZ: I want a president who can unite us, plainly and simply.

BLITZER: Because I suspect what we're going to hear from the president at the debate Thursday night is some really, really nasty allegations against the former vice president. He tweeted this week, Biden is a national security threat, he is a member of an organized crime family. I suspect you're gearing up to hear that as well.

PEREZ: Well, when you don't have any answers to the crises of the moment, you have to distract. In 2018, it was the caravans. In 2020, you know, he'll use socialism. Even though as the senator from Nebraska correctly points out, the authoritarian leader in the United States right now is Donald Trump. So he'll try to use those distractions. But the American people are on to him by now.

They understand that he just doesn't have a plan for the coronavirus and he doesn't have their back. Health care is on the ballot.

BLITZER: All right.

PEREZ: And in the middle of a pandemic, he is trying to do away with coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. Health care was the issue in '17, '18 and '19. And I think it's even a bigger issue now, Wolf, because of the pandemic. And more people have pre-existing conditions. And they're ramming through, trying to ram through a Supreme Court nominee to accomplish in the courts what they couldn't accomplish in the Congress, which was to do away with the Affordable Care Act.

[20:35:10]

Folks, health care is on the ballot on November 3rd and it's on the docket of the Supreme Court a week later. We need to get out there and send a very strong message about what our values are. We want to make sure we protect coverage for people with pre-existing condition. So make a plan. Go to iwillvote.com. This is the election of our lifetime. Vote like your life depends on it because frankly it does.

BLITZER: It's going to be a huge turnout, I am sure.

Tom Perez of the DNC, thanks so much for joining us.

PEREZ: Always a pleasure, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you.

Former Trump administration officials including John Bolton, Olivia Troye, Miles Taylor, they will join my colleague, Jake Tapper, with an urgent message for America, "THE INSIDERS: A WARNING FROM FORMER TRUMP OFFICIALS." That's coming up right at the top of the hour right after the special SITUATION ROOM.

Coming up, we're learning more about the alleged kidnapping plot of the Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer. We'll have more on that. We're getting new information. Stay with us. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:40:16]

BLITZER: We're getting a new look right now, some really chilling new videos of the suspects accused in a plot to kidnap the Michigan governor, Gretchen Whitmer. In at least one of them, they are seen carrying out what appears to be training exercises.

Sara Sidner is covering the story for us, doing a lot of reporting.

Sara, you're getting other new details as well. Update our viewers on what's going on. This is all so disturbing that these individuals, 13 or 14 of them, actually were plotting to kidnap a democratically elected governor.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That is the allegation, Wolf. We're now seeing these stunning new images released in the alleged kidnapping plot against Michigan's governor. Now the videos were entered as evidence in court by federal prosecutors.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice-over): You are looking at evidence that was played in federal court of the field training exercises federal prosecutors say were carried out in a plot to storm Michigan's capital and kidnap Governor Gretchen Whitmer. CNN affiliate WXMI obtained the video from the U.S. Attorney's office after the preliminary hearings for six men federally charged with conspiracy to kidnap a sitting governor. Several pieces of federal evidence were played in court.

BRANDON CASERTA, SUSPECT: I'm sick of being robbed and enslaved by the state. Period. I'm sick of it. And these are the guys who are actually doing it. You know? So if -- you know, if we're doing a recon or something and we come up on some of them, dude, you better not give them a chance. You either tell them to go right now or else they're going to die, period. That's what it's going to be, dude, because they are the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) enemy, period.

SIDNER: The suspects' alleged deeds and words were shown to the federal judge so she could decide if there was enough evidence to go to a grand jury.

In this video, the lead FBI agent acknowledged in testimony the defendant Adam Fox is inside a basement appearing to be speed reloading his weapon to, quote, "minimize the time" that your weapon is inoperable in case of a gunfight. Prosecutors say the video was taken inside this vacuum shop in Grand Rapids.

(On camera): The owner of this vacuum shop says Adam Fox lived here for the last couple of weeks. He says he lived behind this door and down into the basement.

BRIANT TITUS, STORE OWNER: -- basement where he stayed.

SIDNER: OK. TITUS: And he was only going to stay until November.

SIDNER: Why did you decide it was time for him to go?

TITUS: He was buying more like attachments for like an AR-15 and he was buying like food. And I'm not stupid. I was in the Marine Corps. So that I told him he had to go.

SIDNER (voice-over): Briant Titus says he had no idea what was going on in his business' basement after hours.

The FBI testified this is inside another defendant's basement where you can see an arsenal of weapons in a gun locker, including an illegal short barrel rifle. Beyond the videos, the FBI says they also infiltrated encrypted chats and text chains laying out the plot. In one encrypted chat, the suspects allegedly used code names and discussed killing Governor Whitmer, not just kidnapping her.

The FBI identified the codename "Beaker" as suspect Daniel Harris who writes, "Laying in bed, craziest idea, have one person go to her house, knock on the door and when she answers, just cap her. At this point, F it." Someone with the codename "Text" responds, "LOL, only if it would be that easy." Beaker replies, "I mean, F, catch her walking into a building and act like passersby and fixing dome her. Then yourself whoever does it. Why create a manhunt? Do it in broad daylight and then end it." Text replies, "Good point. Or recon the house and snipe her."

The alleged plot was never carried out. The six men along with seven others were arrested in an October FBI raid. Six were charged federally. The rest charged by the state for acts of terror.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: And we're now learning that there is an eighth suspect that has been arrested in the state's case bringing the total accused in this plot, Wolf, to 14. Of course it goes without saying, all of the defendants are innocent until proven guilty. We reached out to their attorneys after receiving this video. We have not heard back from them -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Excellent, excellent reporting, Sara Sidner, on the scene for us as usual. Terrific, terrific work. This is so, so scary. Thank you so much for that.

We'll take a quick break. More news right after this.

[20:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Nancy Reagan is known as the doting wife of President Ronald Reagan but in reality she played much more than a supporting role in the first Hollywood presidency. This week on CNN's Original Series "FIRST LADIES" we take a close look at how Nancy Reagan was a major force from behind the scenes. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reagan carries an unprecedented 49 states in the '84 election. And Nancy's eye turns toward securing his legacy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 1997, I asked her, was there some area that you felt you had an effect? And she said, no, no, no. Ron knew exactly what he wanted to do from the moment he was elected. And then she paused and very, very softly added, well, maybe the whole Russian thing. And I was like, the whole Russian thing? You mean the main thing of his administration?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:50:08]

BLITZER: Our White House correspondent Kate Bennett is joining us now.

Kate, Nancy Reagan has been credited as being the political brains behind her husband Ronald Reagan. How instrumental -- and you've done a lot of reporting on this. How instrumental was she in getting President Reagan's political career really going?

KATE BENNETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: She was the engine behind the machine of Ronald Reagan. Everything he did, Nancy either approved or thought of or she was right by his side. You know, when you look back on pictures, and this program tonight is great because we really see her inside the Oval Office, in the situation room. She seems like she's more in the West Wing than she was in the East Wing.

And that really goes back to her protecting Ronald Reagan and really wanting him to shine. But she was involved, Wolf. She was really a part of the entire political machine.

BLITZER: She certainly was. And Nancy Reagan also tried to emulate Jackie Kennedy in some ways, especially her attempt at bringing glamour to the White House. But she was highly criticized at times for her decorating, for the way she dressed. Why was the media and the public for that matter so tough on her in those areas?

BENNETT: Well, this was the '80s. So there were two things going on in the country. There was sort of the super wealthy dynasty moment and then there was also a country in financial decline. And those two things sort of met up in the White House. Nancy Reagan asked friends from back home to donate money to fix up the White House. The Carters hadn't done anything for renovation. And she wanted new furniture and upgrades.

And also she would borrow clothes from designers, which is a no-no for first ladies. First ladies must pay for their own clothes. So she got hit by the press there, too. So the era of sort of freebies and luxury, those moments kind of went away when Nancy Reagan got busted really by the media for playing into her role as first lady and getting some of those things, sometimes for free.

BLITZER: The assassination attempt on President Reagan, of course, had a huge impact on Nancy Reagan and her mission to protect her husband. It even leads her to turn to some questionable sources to try to keep things in her control. Tell us about that.

BENNETT: I think we all -- I'm old enough to remember that Nancy Reagan's astrology fixation. And you sort of wonder whether or not it was true. Here's a very smart first lady. Very worldly. She's been around. And yet she's making phone calls to an astrologer. But she actually was. She was so scared after Ronald Reagan was shot that she really was grasping at straws and she found this astrologer who would tell her certainly days that were good for travel and certain days that weren't. And certain days that were maybe OK.

And she really relied on this. It was much more psychological to help her cope with this life that she still had to live with the president, with his life possibly always hanging in the balance. So she turned to astrology of all things. The first lady calling from the East Wing of her residence to her astrologer. But it was certainly true and there's more of this side tonight.

BLITZER: Very interesting indeed. All first ladies, as you know, Kate, they take out a favorite cause during their time in the White House. Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No to Drugs" campaign was one of the most well-known. So what's the legacy of that program?

BENNETT: Well, I remember that I had a "Just Say No" sticker on my notebook in elementary school so certainly it was popular. You know, I think there's a different stigma now with drugs and addiction and more, you know, wanting people to get help and understanding that addiction is a disease. Nancy Reagan was just don't do it, don't do it at all. We all remember Mr. T from the "A Team" going to the White House and "Just Say No" really became her signature campaign.

BLITZER: And it was so, so important and so well done.

Kate Bennett, thank you so much for joining us.

And to our viewers, please make sure you tune in to the new episode of the CNN Original Series "FIRST LADIES." That will air at 10:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific tonight, only here on CNN.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:58:55]

BLITZER: Before we go tonight, we want to honor the lives of people we've lost in the coronavirus pandemic.

James Hamilton was a campus police officer at the University of North Carolina Ashville. He died this week from complications related to COVID-19 leaving behind two adult daughters. The campus police chief said Hamilton always greeted students with a smile. He also served as a town councilman for Spindale for many years. The mayor ordered flags in town to be flown at half-staff. James Hamilton was 55 years old. Christopher Henderson was a healthy personal trainer in Virginia. He

and his wife Danielle both became incredibly ill last month. Just weeks later, he died in the hospital with Danielle by his side. She says she took this picture of her son standing next to Chris' gravesite until everyone else was gone, covering the grave with flowers. Christopher Henderson was only 46 years old.

May they rest in peace and may their memories be a blessing.

Thanks very much for watching this special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We're back tomorrow 5:00 p.m. Eastern.