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The Situation Room
Interview with Former BARDA Director Dr. Rick Bright; Biden and Harris Speak Out; White House Holding Meetings on Presidential Pardons; Biden Says, You're Not Going to See That Kind of Approach to Pardons in our Administration; Trump Questions Barr's Ability to Do Job As Source Reveals They Had "Contentious" White House Meeting This Week. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired December 03, 2020 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: The U.S. has just surpassed 14 million cases, one day after seeing a record 2,804 single-day deaths here in the U.S.
Many hospitals across the country, right now, they are dangerously low on ICU beds, as they care for our record 100,000 COVID patients right now.
We have a CNN exclusive coming up as well. President-elect Joe Biden and vice president-elect Kamala Harris, they just gave their first joint interview since winning the White House to CNN's Jake Tapper, Biden saying he will ask all Americans to wear a mask for the first 100 days of his presidency.
This hour, we will also hear what he has to say about pardons that President Trump is expected to issue in his final weeks in offices.
That's where President Trump's thoughts apparently are, instead of the pandemic. Sources tell CNN there have been multiple, multiple White House meetings about pardons since the election, which Mr. Trump is trying to overturn. And now he's questioning whether the attorney general of the United States, William Barr, knows how to do his job, after he broke with the president's false claims of election fraud.
A source tells CNN the two men had what was described as a contentious meeting over at the White House this week.
We're going to all -- we will get to all of that, but, first, the latest on the worst of the pandemic here in the U.S.
Our national correspondent, Erica Hill, is joining us from New York with the latest.
Erica, nine months, 10 months into this crisis, the country is facing more danger than ever before.
ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's absolutely right. Wolf. You talked about the numbers, the hospitalizations. We are seeing the impact of that rise play out right now in California, where Governor Gavin Newsom has now said there will be new stay-at-home orders once the ICU capacity in a region falls below 15 percent.
And, right now, four of the five regions in California, we're told, are just a day or two away from that happening.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HILL (voice-over): A new emergency brake in California.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): The bottom line is, if we don't act now, our hospital system will be overwhelmed.
HILL: Once ICU capacity falls below 15 percent in any region of the state, a mandatory three-week stay-at-home order will be triggered. Bars, hair salons and playgrounds will close, but schools will stay open.
DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: We are at high tide, and the hurricane is hitting.
HILL: More than 100,000 Americans are currently hospitalized with COVID-19, a record.
GOV. LAURA KELLY (D-KS): Currently, there are zero staffed ICU beds in our state's southwest region.
HILL: Massachusetts prepping a new overflow field hospital today in Worcester.
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: More hospitals in this country are right on that edge of not being able to provide that care. That's when the number of deaths will really go up.
HILL: The CDC's ensemble forecasts now projecting up to 329,000 Americans could die by December 26. More than 2,800 deaths were reported Wednesday, the highest ever in a single day.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I'm so terrified and very anxious about what's going to happen in the weeks ahead.
HILL: Fourteen million confirmed cases in the U.S. and rising more than 200,000 added on Wednesday.
DR. ALI KHAN, FORMER CDC OFFICIAL: We shouldn't expect something different. We're doing the same thing over and over again.
HILL: Nine months in, Americans are tired and frustrated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are destroying Staten Island business.
HILL: Hundreds turning out to support the owners of this New York bar after it was shut down for violating new COVID restrictions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just trying to support my family.
HILL: Hope is on the horizon. GOV. NED LAMONT (D-CT): Prioritizing health care workers and nursing
homes. We ought to be able to have all of them vaccinated with their second dose by mid-late January.
HILL: States already preparing to distribute the vaccine, which, if approved, could ship in less than two weeks. CVS and Walgreens will handle vaccinations for long-term care facilities.
DR. TROY BRENNAN, CVS HEALTH: Our plan is to be ready to go as early as December 15.
HILL: Now the push is on to make sure Americans trust it.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I may end up taking it on TV or having it filmed, just so that people know I trust this science.
HILL: Former Presidents Clinton and Bush also confirming to CNN they will get the vaccine publicly to boost confidence, as the current president continues to ignore the raging pandemic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And one more note on the vaccine.
Earlier this week, of course, a CDC advisory panel recommended that front-line health care workers and those in long-term care facilities receive the first doses of that vaccine.
Today, the director of the CDC, Dr. Robert Redfield, signing off on those recommendations. He said he agrees with that, and then also urged that, for future recommendations, older people should be considered who live in multigenerational households -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Erica Hill in New York for us -- Erica, thank you.
Let's go to the White House right now.
Our White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond is joining us.
Jeremy, as this pandemic rages and rages on, the president and his team, what, they're focusing in on pardons?
[18:05:01]
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf.
President Trump pardoned his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn last week, but that's expected to be just the first in a slew of pardons that the president is going to issue in the final days of his presidency.
And CNN has now learned that there have been multiple meetings at the White House led by the White House Counsel's Office and involving top aides like Jared Kushner to discuss potential future pardons. Now, the meetings themselves aren't necessarily unusual towards the
end of a presidency. But what is unusual is the slate of controversial pardons that the president is considering for his political allies and even potentially his family members.
And now, Wolf, while these pardons are also on the horizon, the president's single-minded focus is really on overturning the results of the election. And his claims of voter fraud, those baseless claims, are now putting him at odds with one of his most loyal Cabinet members, the attorney general, Bill Barr.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUESTION: Do you still have confidence in Bill Barr?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ask me that in a number of weeks from now.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Today, President Trump unable to conceal his anger toward his attorney general, two days after Barr undercut Trump's baseless allegations that the 2020 election was rigged.
TRUMP: Well, he hasn't done anything. So he hasn't looked. When he looks, he will see the kind of evidence that right now you're seeing. They haven't looked very hard, which is a disappointment, to be honest with you, because it's massive fraud.
DIAMOND: The truth, there's no evidence of massive fraud, which Barr acknowledged on Tuesday, telling the Associated Press: "To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election."
That kind of reality-based talk sent the president into a fury, leading to a lengthy meeting with Barr that one person familiar with the matter described as contentious.
TRUMP: Bill, please.
DIAMOND: Trump's anger toward Barr, one of his most loyal Cabinet members, had already been mounting for weeks, fueled by the lack of indictments in U.S. attorney John Durham's inquiry into the Russia investigation.
Two White House officials said Trump has considered firing the attorney general, but is being advised against it by several people.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president, if he has any personnel announcements, you will be the first to know it.
DIAMOND: With less than seven weeks left in his presidency, Trump seems more detached from reality than ever.
TRUMP: It was about fraud. This election was rigged.
DIAMOND: Delivering a 46-minute rant laced with lies and debunked conspiracy theories on Wednesday, as courts continue to reject his lawsuits as meritless.
The president also ignoring the darkest chapter of the pandemic, hosting a mostly maskless audience in the Oval Office today after the single deadliest day of the pandemic.
And both the White House and the State Department are flouting CDC guidelines, inviting hundreds to holiday parties this month.
White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany defending the events.
MCENANY: If you can loot businesses, burn down buildings, engage in protest, you can also go to a Christmas party, you can celebrate the holiday of Christmas, and you can do it responsibly. They will have smaller guest lists. Masks are going to be available. Social distancing is going to be encouraged.
DIAMOND: But that's not true.
Social media posts from White House parties this week show guests tightly packed together, many of them not wearing masks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND (on camera): And, Wolf, amid these tensions between the Attorney General Bill Barr, and the president of the United States, we are now also learning that the White House liaison, who is set to be the eyes and ears of the White House at the Justice Department, that that individual has now been barred from entering the Justice Department.
A source familiar with the matter telling us that she attempted to access sensitive information about potential investigations into voter fraud cases, again, Wolf, just the latest in this heightening battle, it seems, between the president and his own attorney general -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Jeremy, thank you very much, Jeremy Diamond over at the White House.
Let's get some more in all of this.
Now joining us, Dr. Rick Bright, a member of the Biden/Harris Coronavirus Advisory Board. He's also the former director of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, a position he lost after filing a whistle-blower complaint alleging the Trump administration ignored early warnings about the COVID-19 pandemic.
Dr. Bright, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for what you have done, what you are doing right now.
As you may have heard in the last hour, the president-elect, Joe Biden, sat down with our own Jake Tapper, revealed some of his plans for getting this pandemic under control.
I want you to listen to this little exchange. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: My inclination, Jake, is, on the first day I'm inaugurated, is to say, I'm going to ask the public for 100 days to mask, just 100 days to mask, not forever, 100 days.
And I think we'll see a significant reduction if we incur that -- if that occurs, with vaccinations and masking, to drive down the numbers considerably, considerably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:10:05]
BLITZER: How much of a difference, Dr. Bright, do you think 100 days of masking all over the country potentially could make?
DR. RICK BRIGHT, FORMER DIRECTOR, BIOMEDICAL ADVANCED RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY: Well, Wolf, thanks for having me on again tonight.
As you mentioned earlier in the segment preceding this, we have had more deaths in the last 24 hours than at any other time of this pandemic. If you break it down, that is one death about every 30 seconds in the last 24 hours across the United States. It's really, really concerning.
We know one of the most effective ways to control the spread of this virus is by wearing a mask, wearing a face mask. President-elect Biden and his leadership, and listening to scientists, believe that, if we all wore our mask for 100 days, then we would have a significant reduction in the transmission of this virus.
The science shows that wearing a face mask reduces the spread. I think it would have a huge impact. We have a lot of people wearing masks today. And if we can just get everyone to do it for a period of time, we can save a lot of lives.
BLITZER: And you speak also as a member of the Biden/Harris Coronavirus Advisory Board.
Can we expect additional public health mandates at the start of the new Biden administration? Is your advisory board, for example, recommending further action?
BRIGHT: Well, Wolf, we're looking at the science. We're seeing the things that are most effective.
What I think will be most important is if we can get individuals to take some personal responsibility all across the country, wearing a face mask, social distancing, and following those public health guidelines. That's going to have a huge impact.
That is going to keep us in a safe zone and probably reduce the spread of this virus even more. As we start seeing January and February and March coming through, we will have more and more people vaccinated. So, with the introduction of the vaccine, and people taking the vaccine, combined with wearing the face mask and social distancing, then that's going to have a huge impact in reducing the spread of the virus and ending the pandemic sooner.
BLITZER: I want to get your reaction to what we just heard Jeremy Diamond over the White House reporting, a lot of Christmas parties going on at the White House. Secretary Pompeo is going to have a bunch of parties over at the State Department. People may be or may not wear masks. There could be a lot of crowds there.
What do you make of that?
BRIGHT: Wolf, that's extremely concerning on a number of different levels.
First of all, our leaders in our country should be leading by example. We should be listening to the best science and the CDC guidelines for public health. And our leaders across the federal and the state and local levels should be exhibiting leadership and following those examples and those guidelines.
And I would encourage anyone who's considering attending those events to think twice. There are a lot of things at risk. And the most important thing at risk is lives, your life and the life of others around you. If you attend those events, you disregard public health guidelines, you don't socially distance, you don't wear your face mask, you're at extreme risk of picking up this virus and spreading it to other people.
That could lead to additional infections and additional lost. So, please reconsider your actions if you're planning to go to one of those events.
BLITZER: Yes, and not just those events, but all around the country, these parties, especially indoors, you're not wearing masks, potentially, this is a life-and-death matter.
The president-elect also confirmed to CNN in that interview that he met with Dr. Fauci today, asked him to stay on in his current role and maybe have even an expanded role. Is the Biden coronavirus team finally able to get all the information you need from the outgoing administration team to ensure that you guys can hit the ground running on this crisis on day one?
BRIGHT: Well, some of the meetings have started.
The agency review teams, the ARTs, we call them, have started having some initial meetings. And I was glad to see the meeting with Dr. Fauci today occurred. That just exhibits once again that president- elect Biden and vice president-elect Harris are letting science lead. They're listening to the scientists and public health experts.
And we hope that this continues throughout the next few weeks.
BLITZER: The governor of California now says parts of that state could return to a mandatory stay-at-home order if ICU capacity at hospitals, for example, dips below 15 percent. Is that an effective way to determine staying at home, whether staying
at home is necessary? Would you encourage other states to follow that lead?
BRIGHT: We want to look at every way possible to protect people.
We can protect people by implementing those public health guidelines, if everyone would take personal responsibility in wearing their face mask and -- whenever they are outside and social distancing. And there are other measures that might need to be optimized or scaled up or scaled down at that very local level or very regional level.
[18:15:06]
And that might include encouraging more people to stay out of the public domain, to stay at home. And that is for your own protection, because the virus is out there. There's a lot of prevalence in a lot of people.
And it's for your own protection to remove yourself from those interactions for a while, until we can get the virus under better control.
BLITZER: I want to turn your attention to another area of your expertise, vaccines.
Once a vaccine is finally approved -- and that could be in the next week or two -- you have pointed out that they don't necessarily deliver themselves. We know there are some real obstacles ahead to get these vaccines, some of which must be kept extremely cold, distributed to states.
Does the Biden Coronavirus Advisory Board -- once again, you're a member -- have a plan for taking over that process after January 20?
BRIGHT: Well, Wolf, this is a very complex process, as you can imagine.
So, I have said a number of times there's a huge gap between a loading dock and an individual's arm, so that last mile, we call it. So, we're looking very closely at the complicated pathway between manufacturing the vaccine and actually delivering and administering that vaccine.
We understand that there's a lot of work that still needs to be done at the local level and the state level and the tribal and territory level to make sure that there is infrastructure in place to be able to administer those vaccines, to make sure that there are people in place and are trained to be able to administer those vaccine.
And all of the important educational process that is needed, from local messengers, from trusted messengers in every community, in every language is required to make sure people can understand the value of that vaccine and trust that vaccine and line up to take that vaccine.
So there's a lot of details. And our advisory board is working with the transition team and advising them on the questions and information to exchange with the current administration to make sure, by January 20, we have everything in place; on day one, we're ready to roll out.
BLITZER: I know you got to run.
Very, very quickly, Dr. Bright, if you get a vaccine and you're not going to get coronavirus, can you still transmit it? Are you still contagious?
BRIGHT: Well, Wolf, we are waiting to see the data on that.
So, as you can imagine, the advisory panel from the FDA, that VRBPAC committee, is reading thousands of pages of information right now. And some of that information might be contained in the data collected already. Or we might need to continue collecting some of that data, so we can answer that question confidently.
Right now, I would say we don't really have a strong answer to whether or not a person who has been vaccinated can continue to perhaps shed the virus if they got exposed to it.
BLITZER: That's very...
BRIGHT: But that's one of the important questions that we're going to answer.
BLITZER: I have been speaking to experts, and they're very concerned about that, because they don't have an answer on that yet. We're going to have to find out. There's still a lot of questions out there.
Dr. Bright, thanks for everything you're doing. Thanks so much for joining us. Good luck.
BRIGHT: Thanks, Wolf. Thank you.
BLITZER: Just ahead: President-elect Biden tells CNN he will ask all Americans to wear a mask for his first 100 days in office; plus, what he has to say about the pardons President Trump has already started granting in his final weeks in office.
We're going to hear more of Jake Tapper's exclusive interview with the president-elect and the vice president-elect. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:22:43]
BLITZER: More now of Jake Tapper's exclusive interview with president- elect Biden and vice president-elect Harris.
In addition to talking about the coronavirus pandemic, they also talked about pardons by President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: President Trump is reportedly considering a wave of preemptive pardons for his adult children and for Rudy Giuliani. He's also floated the idea in private conversations, according to our
reporting, of possibly pardoning himself, which he insists he has the power to do, though that has never been litigated.
Does this concern you, all these preemptive pardons?
BIDEN: Well, it's -- it concerns me, in terms of what kind of precedent it sets and how the rest of the world looks at us as a nation of laws and justice.
But, look, our Justice Department is going to operate independently on those issues, that -- how to respond to any of that. I'm not going to be telling them what they have to do and don't have to do. I'm not going to be saying, go prosecute A, B, or C. I'm not going to be telling them.
That's not the role -- it's not my Justice Department. It's the people's Justice Department.
So, the person or persons I pick to run that department are going to be people who are going to have the independent capacity to decide who gets prosecuted and who doesn't.
Now, in terms of the pardons, you're not going to see, in our administration, that kind of approach to pardons, nor are you going to see in our administration the approach to making policy by tweets.
It's just going to be a totally different way in which we approach the justice system.
TAPPER: During the primary last year, Madam Vice President-Elect, you told NPR that the Justice Department -- quote -- "would have no choice" but to prosecute President Trump and that -- quote -- "There has to be accountability."
How does that square with what the president-elect has said about not telling the Justice Department to go after individuals?
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will not tell the Justice Department how to do its job.
And we are going to assume -- and I say this as a former attorney general elected in California -- and I ran the second largest Department of Justice in the United States -- that any decision coming out of a justice department, in particular, the United States Department of Justice, should be based on facts, it should be based on the law, it should not be influenced by politics, period.
[18:25:12]
BIDEN: I guarantee you, that's how it will be run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, let's get some more on all of this. Our chief political correspondent, Dana Bash, is with us. CNN
political correspondent Arlette Saenz is with us. And CNN White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond is with us as well.
Dana, Biden's view of the Justice Department appears to be night and day from how President Trump views his own attorney general. Tell us a little bit about that.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's traditional. It's the way the Justice Department has almost always run, except when there have been constitutional crises in this country, particularly in the '70s, in the Nixon era.
And this is one of the big issues that Joe Biden was talking about in the general election. Certainly, it didn't pop up as much as big issues like the coronavirus and the economy, but it was part of the overall message of returning to normalcy that Biden and Harris said over and over again.
I thought it was interesting that vice president-elect Harris, understandably, went back on what she said during the primaries. I mean, during the primaries, she was very aggressive about prosecuting President Trump when he leaves office. Not so much now.
First of all, she's not the president. So she goes with what Joe Biden says. But, also, it's not unusual. I mean, remember, even Donald Trump during the general election in 2016 said, "Lock her up," about Hillary Clinton, and he didn't do that.
So it's -- I think it's pretty typical when you look at campaigns vs. actual governance.
BLITZER: Jeremy, we will see if President Trump goes ahead with all these pardons over the next few weeks, but how much pressure will the president-elect face from liberals who clearly want to see President Trump held accountable?
DIAMOND: I think Joe Biden will probably come under some pressure from the more progressive base of the Democratic Party, but only in some corners.
I think there's also broadly a desire in the Democratic Party to kind of move on from the Trump era. And that will also play a part here. Now, what's important to note here is, as Joe Biden is saying that he's going to allow the Department of Justice to proceed independently, and he's not going to tell them what to do, that also notably means that he's also not going to tell them who not to investigate.
And that is something to also keep in mind here, and certainly who he picks to be his attorney general will factor into whether or not it looks like the Department of Justice is ultimately going to pursue some kind of investigation or charges against then former President Trump.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that, ultimately, President Trump, if he pardons himself, he can only pardon himself for federal crimes. And so that still allows the state of New York, which has been investigating the Trump Organization, to continue to carry out those investigations.
And that's something that neither President Trump nor President Biden can ultimately stop or interfere with.
BLITZER: Yes, that's really an important point.
Arlette, what does that exchange tell you about how Biden and vice president-elect Harris, how they will work together?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Wolf, I think that's one of the interesting aspects of this interview.
It's one of those rare moments where we have seen the two of them sit down, answering questions from reporters in this type of format. But, as you saw, from their answers, they are both in -- Kamala Harris is in lockstep with what Joe Biden has to say now about the possibility of prosecutions against the president.
These are two politicians who certainly had differences. That is part of the reason that they ran during the primary. We saw that aired out when it came to health care and whether there should be an expansion the Affordable Care Act or Medicare for all.They were on opposite ends of that issue. They have been on opposite ends of legalizing marijuana.
And I think that what you want -- what you see Biden really wanting is a vice president who can fill the same role that he did with President Obama, someone who is simpatico when it comes to governing issues, but certainly that there will be disagreements. They may not be aired out in public, but, behind the scenes, Biden does want to have that input that may be different from his views.
You have Kamala Harris, who comes from a very different life and professional experience from Biden. And that is something that she can really lend in this role of vice president.
Now, one thing that I think will be interesting to watch going forward is to see whether vice president-elect Kamala Harris gets a specific portfolio, in the way that Joe Biden did when he was vice president to President Obama. He handled the Recovery Act back in 2009.
So, that will be an interesting dynamic to see what Biden might put his vice president in charge of in these early days of the administration.
[18:30:00]
BLITZER: Yes, you know, and on that, Dana, what did you make of that, the fact that the vice president-elect bringing -- bringing up -- bringing in her own experience? She was California's Attorney General.
BASH: Well, it's understandable. It was her calling card from the very beginning of her own presidential run, Kamala Harris for the people. She said it over and over again. It was her tagline. It was her bumper sticker and it still remains, I mean.
And the Biden campaign obviously leaned into it. It was part of her biography. It was part of her platform and what she talked about with knowledge, her informed discussion, her informed campaign talking points, if you will. And there's no reason to believe it will be different going into actual governance that he will be relying on her for her experience, because that's one of the reasons he picked her.
BLITZER: Yes, certainly is.
You know, Jeremy, we also heard in the previous hour here in The Situation Room that Biden plans to ask Americans to wear a mask for the first 100 days of his presidency and he plans to mandate masks wherever he has the power. How big of a shift do you think that will be to hear that kind of message coming from the very top, because we certainly did not hear that kind of message coming from President Trump this past year?
DIAMOND: Yes, it's a huge shift, Wolf. I mean, this is a president who not only didn't take the steps to encourage Americans regularly to wear mask as they go out and take the common sense public health measure that can help all Americans during this pandemic, but he's also president who mocked mask. He mocked Joe Biden, in fact, for wearing masks during the 2020 presidential campaign.
And, ultimately, this is a president right now, who we have, who has never had a consistent message on the coronavirus, if not, being a consistent message to downplay the virus. We saw there were certain times early on in the pandemic when the president seemed to shift in tone and take a more serious approach, really leveling with the American people about the seriousness. But those moments really only lasted a few days.
And the more consistent message that we've heard from this president has been one to downplay the severity of the pandemic, and then during the 2020 campaign to positioned himself as the anti-lockdown candidate rather than focusing on what Americans can do day-to-day to alleviate the stress of this pandemic.
BLITZER: All right, everybody standby. I just want to remind our viewers, you can see Jake Tapper's full interview with President-elect Biden, Vice President-elect Harris later tonight at 9:00 P.M. Eastern only here on CNN.
Coming up, reaction from what we just heard President-elect Biden say about the pardons President Trump is expected to grant in the next few weeks.
Plus, the pressure he's facing on diversity as he assembles his incoming administration. We will talk about that and more with the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, Congresswoman Karen Bass. There you see her. She's standing by, live. We will discuss when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:00]
BLITZER: This hour's breaking news, President-elect Biden tells CNN's Jake Tapper, he's concerned about reports President Trump is planning a flurry of pardons in the next few weeks before he leaves office. The president-elect says his Justice Department won't take the same kind of approach.
Let's discuss this and more with California Democratic Representative Karen Bass, she is the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us.
The president-elect told CNN he's concerned about the precedent it would set if President Trump does pardon, let's say, his children, his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, or even himself, doubled down on his commitments that his Department Of Justice will be independent. I assume you see that as potentially a welcomed shift?
REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): Well absolutely. Anything that will get us back to normalcy is absolutely welcomed. But, you know, I think when the study is done on this administration, it's going to give us at least 100 things that should never happen again. And I'm sure there's going to be some legislation that tightens up the checks and balances that clearly didn't work with this administration.
BLITZER: As you know, President-elect Biden has promised to surround himself with a diverse group of advisers, members of his cabinet. But right now, some civil rights groups are actually pushing for more influence. In the last hour, I spoke with the NAACP president, Derrick Johnson, he told me this. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DERRICK JOHNSON, PRESIDENT, NAACP: Now, I can't say I am a big supporter of Marcia Fudge, the Secretary of Ag. I'm very clear about that. I can say it would be an offense to put someone like Rahm Emanuel in any department considering he had a police cover up during his term.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Do you agree with him on that?
BASS: Well, I absolutely agree with him about Secretary of Agriculture, our Marcia Fudge should definitely be in that spot.
But let me just tell you what the Black Caucus has done. We have set up a task force that is looking at appointments, that is looking at areas of policy for the first 100 days and we are making recommendations. We have not taken a position against anybody that's rumored to be appointed. But we are being very proactive and are definitely behind Marcia Fudge for Secretary of Agriculture.
BLITZER: Derrick Johnson also told me he and others in the civil rights movement, they're going to be meeting with the president-elect and the vice president-elect next Monday or Tuesday. Will you, as the leader of the Congressional Black Caucus, will you be involved in that as well?
[18:40:00]
BASS: No, no, I wouldn't be involved in that. I think it's great that they're having that meeting. But you should know that we have been in communication with the administration every week. And then, of course, you know Cedric Richmond, former Chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, was the National Co-chair of the Campaign, was the Co-chair of the transition, so we feel we're very well positioned. We do have a meeting coming up as we do every Monday.
BLITZER: I know you're not speaking against anyone who's being mooted, who is being considered for a position. But once a name has officially been announced, would you, as the leader of the Congressional Black Caucus, come out against it if you felt that person wasn't qualified?
BASS: Well, I think it's possible but, you know, that certainly hasn't happened so far. But one thing I'm absolutely seeing is all sorts of names are being floated for all sorts of positions. So, it's difficult to understand which names are real and which one aren't.
But, so far, you know, very excited about the appointment of Linda Thomas-Greenfield. I've worked with her for years. She's going to be superb at the United Nations. Having Cecilia Rouse, having that elevated to a cabinet position. So, I think some of the appointments have been very exciting. We know there's many more to come. And we certainly hope to be seeing African Americans in secretary level positions, secretary of defense, agriculture, commerce, transportation. I think there're lots of opportunities that await us.
BLITZER: How about housing and urban development? I ask that question, Congresswoman, and you well know this, your name has been mentioned frequently, and potentially a member of the cabinet and secretary of Housing and Urban Development.
BASS: Oh, well, Housing and Urban Development absolutely, it would be great to see an African American in that position. And, you know, I mean, I am so excited about President Biden elect and Vice President Harris coming in to office and I want to do anything I can to, number one, get us past these last four years, back to normalcy, and anything that I can do to help the administration, I am willing to do that.
BLITZER: Well, do you want to be HUD Secretary?
BASS: Well, I mean, I'm talking to the administration. We're looking at what is going on here. I'm very happy in the position that I am in now. And so, we'll see.
BLITZER: The other thing you've being considered for, and I want to ask you this as well, there's going to be a vacant Senate seat in California when Kamala Harris becomes the Vice President of the United Stated. Your name is frequently been mentioned. Is that a job you'd potentially be interested in holding?
BASS: Well, my name has been mentioned. Representative Barbara Lee has been mentioned. And what we're really concerned about is the fact that we don't want to have a situation where there are no African American women in the Senate. Having our own Senator be there was fantastic but the idea when she leaves that there won't be, so we'd definitely like to see an African American woman in that spot.
And again, I am willing to serve to get this country back on track, but I also have a wonderful position in the House of Representatives, and I look forward to continuing to move our country forward.
BLITZER: Well, you could be secretary of state, but they already named someone, because you are very diplomatic, Representative Karen Bass. Thank you so much for joining us, good luck to you and we're grateful for all of the work that you have done. We appreciate it very much.
BASS: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
BLITZER: Thank you.
Just ahead, we'll dig deeper into the fallout between President Trump and the attorney general of the United States, William Barr.
Plus, what's ahead for the president's older children when they actually leave the White House?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:48:09]
BLITZER: Today, President Trump wouldn't say whether he has confidence in the attorney general of the United States, William Barr. A source tells CNN the two had a rather contentious meeting this week after Barr told "The Associated Press" that the Justice Department found no evident of widespread voter fraud that would have changed the outcome of the presidential election.
We're joined now by CNN legal analyst, Carrie Cordero.
Carrie, thanks so much for joining us.
The president essentially said the attorney general of the United States had not looked hard enough into finding what the president claims is massive fraud.
Does it sound like he's trying to pressure Bill Barr to serve up evidence to back up his bogus claims?
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think he would like to be able to do that. But the fact of the matter is that the Justice Department can't find facts that are not there. If there is not a substantial amount of voter fraud, which there does not appear to be any, anywhere across the country, either from state officials or from federal officials, the facts just simply aren't there.
The president periodically wants his Justice Department to be able to do things that serve his political interests. But in this case, he is just not going to be able to because the -- to the extent that the Justice Department has looked at it, they have found nothing. That is the important part to focus on. The substance on what Bill Barr is saying.
BLITZER: And in that interview with "The Associated Press", the attorney general said it wasn't just the Justice Department. It was also the Department of Homeland Security that looked into it. It was also the FBI that looked into it. They could come up with nothing substantial to find widespread allegations of fraud in the election that would have changed the result.
How much trouble, Carrie, could President Trump create for himself if he did, for example, the next few weeks fire the attorney general?
CORDERO: Well, I'm less concerned about trouble he could create for himself if he fires the attorney general, if he asks for his resignation, then there will be an acting attorney general.
[18:50:06]
And that's still not going to change the investigation. So, I don't think it will do -- it won't serve his end by firing or asking for the resignation of Bill Barr. But, you know, the thing that's really important about this, Wolf, is the president's insistence on continuing this narrative that there is some kind of fraud, which there is not, is really having real life tangible effects and they're really harmful.
There are voter officials -- people administering elections throughout the country, including in Georgia, who have talked about threats to election administrators. There was a Georgia election official who gave a very impassioned public speech this week, talking about the threats that people administering in the election in Georgia are facing.
There is lack of confidence that the president is potentially causing in the outcome of the election itself. And so, there's just harm to the country and democracy in general. So, it's beyond just his political desire, but it really is causing a lot of harm.
BLITZER: You make a good point. You make a very good point. Carrie, thank you very much for joining us, Carrie Cordero, with some excellent analysis.
Just ahead, as President Trump discusses preemptive pardons for his eldest children, we will take a closer look at with their futures may look like after he exits the White House on January 20th.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:56:10]
BLITZER: As President Trump discusses preemptive pardons for his eldest children, CNN's Kate Bennett is looking into what his family will do next when he leaves office next month.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATE BENNETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When January 20th ushers out President Donald Trump, it does the same for his three eldest children, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump and Ivanka Trump. The Trump kids, along with Tiffany Trump, spent Thanksgiving at Camp David, the rustic Maryland presidential retreat not often used during this administration.
A far cry from opulent family Thanksgivings at Mar-a-Lago or the White House, where President Trump dined with Melania Trump.
The use of taxpayer dollars for a Thanksgiving just for the kids, with Secret Service protection and Camp David staff called into work the visit, smacks of the privileges they have enjoyed and will shortly lose. Each Trump child now faces a different future path than the one they were on pre-White House.
Donald Trump Jr. before in the shadows of Trump's public appearances --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don, tell them what you're looking for.
DONALD TRUMP, JR., SON OF PRESIDENT TRUMP; You'll be judged on three criteria.
BENNETT: Now a Republican fire brand.
DONALD TRUMP, JR: I'm outraged about them exporting your and my American dreams to countries that hate our guts for PC nonsense.
BENNETT: One source telling CNN Junior is, quote, the future of the base.
Sources tell CNN Trump Jr. will also return to his day job at the Trump Organization to try to expand global properties.
The challenges could be many. His father has disparaged world leaders and Junior himself has used his social media to push conspiracy theories to the point that Twitter even suspended him.
Trump Org faces its own struggle.
ERIC TRUMP, SON OF PRESIDENT TRUMP: It's hard to believe. After four years, it's hard to believe we're back here, guys.
BENNETT: Which will be Eric Trump's assignment, according to those familiar with his role, trying to pivot a luxury real estate and hospitality company, and corral the 70-plus million voters who supported his father into now supporting his father's business. As Trump says, we'll see what happens.
And while neither Eric nor Don Jr. are thinking about entering politics, their sister, Ivanka Trump, seems to take her lenient approach to the Trump platform.
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP: Washington has not changed Donald Trump. Donald Trump has changed Washington. BENNETT: While Don Jr. has been whipping up the base back home, Ivanka
spent much of the last four years on obscured diplomacy missions with plenty of photo opportunities to discuss things like economic support for women-owned businesses.
MODERATOR: Are you sure what works for you as a first daughter will also work for every other women in the world?
I. TRUMP: No. I think we represent 15 percent of the population. There is no one size fits all when you think about women.
BENNETT: Or portray herself on the same footing as world leaders at global summits.
According to sources, Ivanka has a desire for a bigger political career, recently stating her pro-life stance and becoming more vocal in defense of Trump's policies, attracting his base as now many moderates and Democrats will be a more challenging group to draw.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BENNETT (on camera): To be so entwined with an administration or president's policies. So, and it will be interesting to see now that their lives have changed post-White House, what happens to these three oldest children of Donald Trump -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Kate Bennett reporting for us, thanks very much.
Finally, tonight, our tribute to some of the victims of the coronavirus pandemic.
Bill Gumerson of Oklahoma was 76 years old. He was a talented builder and avid preservationist, working to restore many historical properties. Bill's true passion was his eight grandchildren who called him "Bull (ph)" and will miss him deeply.
Arnold Freidman of Massachusetts was 90. He was an army veteran and the owner of an electrical distribution company. Arnold was known for a great sense of humor, for his love of Boston sports team, he leaves behind two children, three grandchildren, and three great- grandchildren.
May they rest in peace and may their memories be a blessing.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
