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The Situation Room
Police Responding To Reports Of Active Shooter At Supermarket In Boulder, Colorado; Interview With Former CDC Director Thomas Frieden; Migrant Surge; Biden Blasts Vladimir Putin; Trump Culpable For Capitol Riot?; AstraZeneca COVID Vaccine Trial Results. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired March 22, 2021 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Wolf Blitzer is off today. I'm Pamela Brown in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And, tonight, AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine may be closer to getting authorization in the United States, after concerns about its use overseas. The company is announcing that the U.S. trial shows the vaccine is safe and 79 percent effective against symptomatic COVID with no increased risk of blood clots.
This comes in a perilous time in the race to vaccinate Americans and beat back the variants. The CDC director is warning against another avoidable COVID surge.
Miami Beach could be a breeding ground for that. The city's mayor has extended a curfew aimed at easing crowds of spring breakers focused on partying and ignoring the pandemic.
We are also following the surge of young migrants at the Southern border, as the White House continues to deny that it's at crisis. This hour, I will talk to a Texas congressman who's sharing disturbing pictures inside the closed, overcrowded and jail-like facilities where thousands of children are in custody.
First to CNN national correspondent Nick Watt.
So, Nick, AstraZeneca is getting ready to seek FDA authorization for its vaccine, as COVID cases are on the rise worldwide. What's the latest on that?
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, for five weeks straight now, new case counts have been climbing worldwide, of particular concern, Europe and its variants.
And Europe has led the CDC director here to warn of a possible fourth surge that she says is avoidable.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WATT (voice-over): Despite the virus and the variants, despite a curfew and police pepper balls, you're watching Miami Beach this weekend. Spring breakers.
DAN GELBER (D), MAYOR OF MIAMI BEACH, FLORIDA: It feels in some ways like our city is the tinder right now. We're one of the few destinations open. And so people are flocking here in.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: We are at a critical point in this pandemic, a fork in the road.
WATT: Eight percent of new cases in Florida, we're told, are that more contagious variant first found in the U.K. In New Jersey, it's 9 percent.
WALENSKY: The Northeast and the Upper Midwest are beginning to again see a significant rise in cases.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): A little bit reminiscent of what happened last spring.
WATT: But there is some optimism that, despite what we're seeing in Florida, despite U.S. air travel on Sunday setting a pandemic era high, that vaccines will win the race against the variants.
DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: We're talking about some form of protective immunity in about 55 percent of the population. So, there's enough of a backstop here that I don't think you're going to see a fourth surge.
WATT: He's talking about the 80 million-plus Americans who have likely been infected and the 80 million-plus who have likely had at least one vaccine dose.
ANDY SLAVITT, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER FOR COVID RESPONSE: This weekend was the first time that the U.S. reported vaccinated more than three million people on consecutive days.
WATT: Three vaccines rolling out already, and AstraZeneca just published some late-stage U.S. trial results.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: Good results, 78.9 percent vaccine efficacy at preventing symptomatic zero.
WATT: A hundred percent against severe disease and zero evidence it causes blood clots.
DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: The AstraZeneca's vaccine is seen as the world's vaccine. It's inexpensive. It's easy to store and to transport.
WATT: But will those apparently baseless fears in Europe over clotting still put people off? In this pandemic, misinformation and messaging matter. They are life or death, says the man once tasked by Trump to lead the quest for a vaccine.
DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, FORMER CHIEF ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: Many people who probably have died or suffered because the whole situation became so political. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WATT: Now, at 8:00 a.m. Wednesday morning, the state of Arizona is going to throw vaccine eligibility open to anyone and everyone 16 years and older.
Only two other states have gone that low so far, Alaska and Mississippi. And, remember, the Biden administration is saying that, within six weeks, every American adult will be at least eligible for a vaccine -- Pamela.
[18:05:05]
BROWN: And, Andy Slavitt, the White House COVID adviser, told me yesterday that he thinks, by early June, any American who wants to be vaccinated could be vaccinated.
Nick Watt, thank you so much for bringing us the latest.
And now let's bring in former CDC Director Dr. Tom Frieden.
Nice to see you, Dr. Frieden.
Let's start with this AstraZeneca news, because the company is saying its coronavirus vaccine is 100 percent effective against severe disease. Could this soon be the fourth vaccine approved for emergency use in the U.S.?
DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: We have got both AstraZeneca and Novavax as additional vaccines that may well get approved in the coming weeks and months.
And the more options we have, the better off we will be. But it's very important to be clear that we want to be completely honest, open, transparent with people. And there are going to be studies. And sometimes you find a one-in-a-million reaction that can be treatable or not treatable, and we just have to be very, very open about that.
There's so much hesitancy. What's happened is, those who are eager to get vaccinated are getting vaccinated. Those who are willing will get vaccinated. Then we're going to deal with people who are more and more reluctant. And the more open and honest we are about the safety and efficacy of vaccines, the more people will get vaccinated.
BROWN: Right, because with AstraZeneca that is now saying there's no evidence the vaccine causes blood clots, it's especially significant because the vaccine was temporarily suspended in parts of Europe.
So, what checks are in place to give Americans confidence in the safety of this shot?
FRIEDEN: Well, there are many systems that track the efficacy and safety of vaccines. And, really, we will have to see with time.
As millions of people get the vaccination, there may be rare vaccine failures. That's expected. There's not going to be 100 percent protection for all people. And there may be rare adverse events. For example, about one-and-a-quarter-of-a-million people who get the vaccine have a serious allergic reaction to it. It's treatable. No one's died from it.
But it's important to know that information. There's still more information to come out on the platelet issue. And there is a theory that there may be a concern for some people maybe at once every few 100,000 doses. Not clear if that is or isn't the case.
The key is to be completely open and transparent with the data, share it with the public, and then let there be an open decision about whether or not the government continues to allow it to be used, and then let people make their own decision about whether they can take it.
But one really important issue is to get this vaccine into doctor's offices. That needs to happen. As vaccine supply becomes more available, particularly with the J&J and the AstraZeneca vaccines that don't require special frozen handling. being able to get this in your local doctor's office, at your local pharmacy, at a pop-up site, at a community vaccination center, all of those things are going to be really protective, because, if we're not careful, we will indeed have avoidable illness and death.
BROWN: So, you have the vaccine and then you have concern over variants. You're seeing the images of spring breakers.
CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky is warning that we could have a another -- quote -- "avoidable surge" if we don't take the right actions now. So, what are those right actions?
FRIEDEN: Well, first off, I said last week, I think, unfortunately, there is likely to be a fourth surge in the U.S. But, fortunately, because of vaccination, it will be far less deadly.
In fact, we estimate that vaccination has already saved at least 40,000 lives in the U.S. These are really good vaccines, and the quicker we get them out, the better. But while they're still being rolled out with really good, growing acceleration, we need to continue to mask up, limit sharing indoor air with people who are not from your household, and limit travel.
What we have seen from other countries is, even with masking and even with closures, when people travel and mix, you can see a big surge of infections a couple of weeks later.
BROWN: So, let's talk about the numbers, because the CDC says more than one in eight people in the U.S. -- that's about 45 million people -- are now fully vaccinated.
At what point will enough vaccines have been administered that we will be able to stay ahead of these variants?
FRIEDEN: Well, the variants are the wild card.
There's suggestive information coming out of Brazil that the variant there, the so-called P.1 variant, can overwhelm natural immunity to the vaccine. In other words, if you had it before, you were really well-protected against the original COVID virus. But if you have it and you get exposed to the P.1 virus, you may will be able to get sick and even very sick again.
That same thing could happen with vaccine-induced immunity. We don't know that it will. So we know it's a risk.
Well, what we need to do is reduce uncontrolled spread. Not only does uncontrolled spread cause avoidable illness, hospitalization and death, but it increases the risk that an even more dangerous variant may emerge that could make the vaccine less effective.
[18:10:03]
BROWN: Which is why there is such a race to get to herd immunity, so that more dangerous variants don't emerge that could impact those who have been vaccinated.
Dr. Tom Frieden, thank you so much.
FRIEDEN: Thank you.
BROWN: And turning now to the White House on its response to the migrant surge at the Southern border, new images of children in U.S. custody are adding to the pressure on the president to take action.
Let's go get more on that from CNN chief domestic affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny.
So, Jeff, the White House continues to insist this is not a crisis.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, they have repeatedly for the last several weeks reclined -- declined to call this immigration crisis a crisis.
But semantics aside, the numbers are growing. The White House is very well aware of this. In the last month alone, we're told, the Border Patrol has arrested more unaccompanied minors than in all of February.
So, clearly, this is growing, even as the U.S. government is telling people, don't come here.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZELENY (voice-over): A new look tonight inside a crowded detention shelter at the U.S. border, where these images show children and families waiting as they try to seek asylum from Central America.
Five pictures released by Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar offer the first glimpse of the rising number of migrant children crossing from Mexico. The White House has not allowed the public to see inside, as the administration insists the humanitarian challenge is not an immigration crisis.
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Children presenting at our border who are fleeing violence, who are fleeing prosecution, who are fleeing terrible situations is not a crisis. And we feel that it is our responsibility to humanely approach this circumstance and make sure they are treated with -- treated and put in conditions that are safe.
ZELENY: As of Sunday, CNN has learned, 822 children were being held in Border Patrol facilities, with jail-like conditions for more than 10 days, longer than the law allows, as the administration scrambles to find shelter and slow the surge of migrants.
Tonight, Press Secretary Jen Psaki telling CNN President Biden does not believe that conditions are acceptable.
PSAKI: They're not meant for children. And that's why he wants to open more shelters, he wants to increase and expedite processing at the border. And this is an issue he's focused on every single day.
ZELENY: Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas declined to say when the children would be housed in more humane conditions, saying only it would be as soon as possible.
ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: We are working around the clock to move those children out of the Border Patrol facilities into the care and custody of the Department of Health and Human Services that shelters them.
ZELENY: Traveling to Florida today, Vice President Kamala Harris echoed that view, also insisting there was not a border crisis.
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We were left with a very challenging situation. We have got to treat this issue in a way that is reflective of our values as Americans and do it in a way that is fair and it is humane. And -- but we have to meet the moment. And there's a lot of work going into that.
ZELENY: For Biden, the growing number of migrants arriving at the U.S. doorstep represents one of the biggest challenges yet of his presidency.
He told CNN's Arlette Saenz he intended to visit the border.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At some point, I will, yes.
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you want to see firsthand what's going on in those facilities?
BIDEN: I know what's going on in those facilities.
ZELENY: Democratic Senator Chris Murphy was among the lawmakers who's been inside those facilities. He said he was nearly moved to tears at the sight of a 13-year-old girl sobbing in terror.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): This is a humanitarian crisis in countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico, where the violence is so epidemic, that these children have to take this harrowing journey to the United States. ZELENY: Republicans have seized on the issue, saying the Biden
administration's policies are a magnet for migrants.
The administration crisis is threatening to overshadow the Biden agenda, as the administration is still trying to shine a spotlight on the American Rescue Plan and explain benefits of the sweeping law.
Tonight, White House officials are also working to finalize details of the nearly $3 trillion jobs and infrastructure proposal to present to Biden this is this week. It would be the next item on the president's agenda.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZELENY: And that agenda item would be a sprawling massive one, Pamela.
It would be jobs infrastructure, as well as a separate slate for human infrastructure. That would be free community college, universal kindergarten. So this is one of the biggest agenda items of this new president. They will be working on it over the next coming weeks and months here.
Now, the question is, how would all this be paid for? Through a combination likely of tax increases for top earners, as well as raising corporate taxes. This is just going to be presented to the president later this week. But he will be talking about it in the next hour, as he meets with Senate Democrats in a virtual meeting.
But, Pamela, immigration is now front and center. And that could impact so much more of the president's agenda -- Pamela.
[18:15:00]
BROWN: It certainly could.
Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much for that.
I'm going to turn to disturbing news coming into THE SITUATION ROOM at this hour.
Boulder, Colorado, police are on the scene of a possible active shooter at a supermarket. Let's show you some video from moments ago. Police, as you see here, have swarmed the area with tactical units and SWAT teams.
Our photojournalist Jeremy Harlan is on the scene for us. He joins me now on the phone.
So, Jeremy, bring us up to speed. What are you seeing?
JEREMY HARLAN, CNN PRODUCER: Pamela, we're definitely seen an active situation here.
There are dozens of law enforcement officers in tactical gear, both walking in and out of the grocery store and on standby. We're roughly about two miles south of the University of Colorado Boulder, campus, again, very active situation.
Just a few minutes ago, we heard police over speakerphone tell someone in a car to please sit up straight and turn themselves in. They were surrounded by police. That's all we have heard at this point, again, SWAT team members moving back and forth very fluidly.
Earlier, we saw a video of a shirtless man being detained by law enforcement officials and quickly led away. We have also seen what appears to be fire departments, firefighters on the top of the roof of the grocery store, but, again, very fluid situation. Dozens of law enforcement officers here, agencies from the Boulder police, the Boulder County Sheriff, and including Broomfield police, which is a nearby town near Boulder -- Pam.
BROWN: So, Jeremy, do we know when we're going to get more information from police?
I know, as you said, it's very fluid. It's unclear. There's a lot unclear, right, whether there's still a shooter inside that supermarket or not, and so forth. Do we know when police will update everyone?
HARLAN: Correct, yes.
Rachel Welte with the Broomfield Police Department just came up to me and said that they will have a media briefing shortly. But, in the meantime, Boulder police are updating folks on Twitter. Unfortunately, I'm not able to look at my phone right now. So I can't get those updates.
But what we do know is it is a very active situation. This is far from being resolved, and, again, just law enforcement agency continually moving around. We hope to get some more information in the next half- hour -- Pam.
BROWN: OK, well, we will be sure to check in with you then.
I'm going to bring in Phil Mudd. I'm going to bring him back into this conversation as we see what is unfolding there.
As you're watching this film, Phil Mudd, if you can hear me, what are your thoughts?
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Just think about this in terms of a couple of phases like a ripple effect.
The first ripple effect piece has to be not only did they pick up a shooter, but ensuring in a building -- and I have been watching some of the coverage on online -- in a building of that size that you can clear the building and guarantee there's nobody else in there.
Think about every storage component in that building, every refrigerated room in that building. It will take a while to clear it. You start to get -- excuse me -- tonight into secondary questions about who the shooter was, and guaranteeing that there was nobody else who was co-conspirator, regardless of whether at the location or not. And then getting into tomorrow, you start getting into the broader questions of motivation and policy questions about whether this means anything going forward for how we control events like this. But, right now, you have got to ensure that this is the only person, if they picked up somebody already, and that the facility, which looks quite large, is secure.
BROWN: Well, and we know that, in these active shooter situations, more times than not, it is a single shooter, it is one person. So we don't know if that is the case here in Boulder, Colorado.
But I want to bring in Charles Ramsey to get an idea from you, Charles, what police are looking for right now. What would be going on with the investigators we see there on the ground?
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I can't see the video feed that you were showing earlier.
But, right now, apparently, just based on what your reporter said on air, they're still securing the same. They're going through it. Just as Phil mentioned, they have to search every inch of it to make sure that they have no more shooters on the premise and also checking the parking lot and so forth, securing it so they can get a to anyone who's wounded or injured.
All those things would be taking place before you have anything in terms of any real information coming from the scene. They may give some preliminary information, but it won't be much. It'll be pretty sketchy at this point in time.
These scenes are very chaotic in the early stages, so it's got to settle down. But number one is clear the scene. Make sure you eliminate whatever threat may be there and that that building is totally secure.
BROWN: And as we're listening to you, we're getting a little bit more information coming in from Jamiel Lynch, CNN's Jamiel Lynch, saying the University of Colorado Hospitals has a chopper and possible ground crews on the scene of the shooting in Boulder, but they have a helicopter and possibly ground ambulances on scene, but have not transported anyone as of yet.
[18:20:03]
What do you think about that, Phil?
MUDD: It's -- I think you got to think of a couple things, first precautionary.
You have got to have -- you look at the number of cops there and the number of ambulances. You mentioned helicopters. You have got to have a precautionary measure, whether you know that there are victims or not, to ensure that you're ready to shift them.
But going back to what Chief Ramsey said, remember, when you're going through a building of that complexity, you might have people who are injured, but the first responsibility those officers is to clear any other shooters out. So, you can think of that about that balance between ensuring that you get somebody to a hospital if there are victims as quick quickly as possible.
But you got to be careful about a law enforcement officer's life if it turns out that they turn a corner to try to save somebody, and there's another shooter there. Right now, this situation is got to be really hot.
BROWN: So, as you're just watching this video, Chief Ramsey, and the SWAT team members and police, they are standing around, would this be what you would expect if there was still an active shooter within that grocery store?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I don't know where that lot is in relationship to the store itself.
That's an indication that they may have the shooter, or at least not feel that there's still an active threat there. I don't know, I can't see the video feed. So, I really don't know at this point in time.
But whether they think they have a shooter or not, they still have to continue to search that entire building. And Phil's absolutely right. In your active shooter training, you literally have to walk past people who may be wounded, because you have got to locate that shooter to make sure they don't commit any more acts of violence.
And so it's a difficult thing. But once you secure that area, then your EMTs and others can come in there and start to evacuate people, but it's not a good sign if you don't see ambulances moving or helicopters moving toward hospitals or what have you.
That doesn't mean that you have a lot of fatalities, but it's just not a good sign.
BROWN: Hmm. That's interesting perspective.
I want to bring back in Jeremy Harlan, who is actually there on the scene.
Jeremy, bring our viewers up to speed on what you're seeing there.
HARLAN: Yes, currently, we're seeing, again, still several law enforcement officers in tactical gear standing by.
You see some groups moving in and out. We are also trying to be very careful not to show exact locations of tactical. The Boulder police just tweeted out an update, saying -- reminding media to please not show tactical positions of officers.
Again, this just proves that this is a very active situation still, a lot of information is still not known. We are still waiting for a press conference to get any updates or any new information. Again, right now, just very fluid, very active, Pam.
BROWN: I know how this is, as a reporter who has covered many of these active shooter situations. In the early hours, it's hard to get concrete information.
But, Jeremy, have you been able to talk to anyone else on the ground? I know you said you spoke to someone with Broomfield police. Have you been able to speak with anyone else about what has been transpiring?
HARLAN: Yes, not in any official capacity is anybody talking. They're really funneling everything through the Boulder Police Department. And that's only on Twitter. Right now they're clearing bystanders away from the police tape that we're standing at.
Only conventional media are supposed to be here. So, again, we're assuming that they're going to set up a press conference in the nearby future. Very few folks standing by. They're just looking at their phones trying to get any updates on what's happening currently in this situation.
But, again, right now we have law enforcement standing by in the active -- again, this is a really large grocery store, shopping area. There's several stores involved. We're about 100 yards away. So we don't see a whole lot. We do see the entrance, and, again, many law enforcement coming in and out.
Just trying to figure out, assess what's going on within this situation.
BROWN: Yes, exactly.
And just really quickly, you said it's a large grocery store. Is there anything else you can tell us about just the size and what it looks like there and kind of what police are dealing with? I know we don't want to say -- we don't want to give specifics. The police, Broomfield police, is asking for people not to give specifics.
But what else can you tell us about sort of the lay of the land there?
HARLAN: Yes, so, the King Soopers is a Kroger brand grocery store. It's very well-known here in Colorado, very popular local grocery store. It's amongst several other kind of in a shopping mall area with restaurants, liquor stores, again, other areas, a bank, a large parking lot with a bunch of cars, clearly.
It's probably a day a lot of people were inside grocery shopping this time of day.
And, again, I'm still seeing law enforcement moving quickly in and out, running. I mean, they are moving quickly. So this is not a situation that has been resolved. There's a couple -- there's a lot moving on.
Again, I'm not going to -- I'm not saying where they are, or we don't want to show them because of tactical reasons. But it is still very active going on all right now.
[18:25:00]
BROWN: Right. And there in Boulder Colorado, it is 4:24 p.m.
Chief Ramsey. I mean, that is a time where you would think people are going by the grocery store, getting whatever they need after work, perhaps.
RAMSEY: Right.
BROWN: What is the first thing a police department does when they get a call like this?
RAMSEY: Well, you respond. I mean, you have to activate your SWAT team, but the first responders is not going to be the SWAT team. It's going to be your officers that are there.
And I don't know about Boulder, but many departments now -- in fact, I'd say probably most departments -- have had active shooter training, where they're trained to form up and go in to try to neutralize the threat as soon as possible.
I mean, we learned that lesson from years ago, Columbine, where police were waiting for SWAT. In the meantime, the active shooter was continuing to harm and kill people. And so we don't wait any longer. You go in, and you neutralize the threat to the best of your ability, until SWAT and other support can get there.
BROWN: I want to bring in former FBI Deputy Director Andy McCabe for your analysis.
Andy, I know it's the early stages. But what can you tell us about what you're seeing there on the ground about this possible active shooter situation at a supermarket in Boulder, Colorado?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Pam, it has all the hallmarks of a chaotic, intense crisis situation.
One of the things we always tell ourselves when those unfortunate events take place is that most of the information you get initially is wrong. So, typically, it's not uncommon for officers to show up at the scene of a shooting, and be told by witnesses and others that they heard two, three, four different shooters.
And as you mentioned earlier, it is typically only one shooter. And that's just an example of some of the early intelligence that can be way off. So, it's important for the tactical units to get on the scene to set up in a way that they can prevent the loss of life, but also develop a better understanding of what's happening inside that building, or inside that vehicle, to try to determine how many folks are really involved in this thing.
BROWN: And we're also learning that ATF is responding to the scene there in Boulder, which is no surprise in a situation like this, Andy.
I'm curious, though, as we both have pointed out, typically, it is only one shooter, but you can't rule out that there are other shooters. So when you're in a situation like this, how does law enforcement decide or divvy up its resources to make sure that there aren't accomplices as well that could be operating outside of where -- of the scene?
MCCABE: Well, as Chief Ramsey noted, if you have any reason to believe that there is a -- the shooting is still active, they're going to go into that facility, whether its first responding police officers or SWAT officers.
They're going to go in there to try to get that shooting to stop. But once they believe that the situation has cooled off a little bit, they're eventually going to go in and clear every single inch of that building, of the adjacent buildings, of the vehicles in the area. And that is a process that can take a very long time. It's also incredibly labor-intensive.
So, the tactical officers want to do what's known as a slow clear. So they don't rush into any rooms. They try to clear as much as they can with use of optical devices and mirrors and things like that. And then they put themselves into that space slowly and in a very controlled fashion.
But they're going to make sure that there is nobody in there inflicting any harm before they turn that scene over to anyone else.
BROWN: What would the FBI be doing right now?
Of course, we're trying to fill this vacuum as we await more information from police about all the specifics of what's happening. But we know there's a lot of law enforcement on the scene as we see in this video here. So, what would the FBI be doing right now, Andy?
MCCABE: So the FBI's role in a situation like this is to provide assistance and support in whatever way that's necessary.
If it's a small police department, they may not have the tactical resources to really address this. And the FBI field office, SWAT teams can be very helpful in that regard. It may be an intelligence effort. If they have developed, let's say, from a witness some elements of the identity of the suppose that shooter, FBI intelligence resources can be very helpful in trying to flesh out a perspective or an understanding who that might be, where they might be from, what might be motivating them, those sorts of things.
So, there's any number of sort of really specialized levels of support that can be given. It's just a very -- it's a fact-dependent situation.
BROWN: And, Chief Ramsey, I want to bring you back in.
You have led to major police forces in D.C. and Philadelphia. How challenging is a situation like this one for the Boulder police?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean, it's very challenging. And, as Andy mentioned, it's also very chaotic right now.
So, there's a lot of things that are going on simultaneously. [18:30:01]
Probably someone has pulled a video to see if they can get a glimpse of what actually took place when the shooting started. That would give you good indication if you got one shooter, two shooters, or what have you.
You can't take anything for granted. But right now, they've got to stabilize the scene. And the first thing you have to do is make sure that you don't have another shooter, if, in fact, the one person they brought out was the shooter.
And as they go through, they go through very cautiously. I mean, you'll have people that are hiding in different places within that building. And so you have to be very careful and very cautious as you're beginning to comb through to make sure that, one, you don't accidentally hurt an innocent person, or, secondly, you don't have a shooter that's actually hiding, pretending to be a victim of some kind. And so they take their time and clear it properly.
BROWN (voice over): You make a really good point. I mean, there are so many variables in a situation like this. If you would, again, tell our viewers what kind of training goes into preparing for a possible active shooter situation like we're seeing play out there in Boulder.
RAMSEY (voice over): Well it's actually called active shooter training. And departments throughout the United States undergo that. Again, when Columbine occurred, that was not the kind of training that officers were getting. And we learned that you can't afford to wait for specialized units to arrive.
Those first officers on the scene will go in and they will make entry and they will try to locate the shooter and neutralize the threat. That's what they're trained to do. And in the meantime, you've got other units, both surrounding jurisdictions, state, maybe federal that are coming in to provide some support and some assistance.
So those are the kinds of things that departments train for now.
BROWN (voice over): I want to read what we're getting in from an eyewitness who was there inside this grocery store today in Boulder, Colorado. The eyewitness told a reporter that they heard one loud bang, thought somebody just dropped something, an employee or something, and then another. And then by the third one, everybody was running.
This eyewitness also went onto say, and I'm quoting, we went out the cargo bay and jumped underneath the loading truck that was there and ran up the back like hell. And then he went onto say that the grocery store was decently crowded, thankfully not too crowded.
So you hear that, Chief Ramsey, that they heard one loud bang, thought somebody dropped something, and then another. And then by the third one, that was when they all knew, okay, this is not a good situation, let's run. RAMSEY (voice over): Well, I mean, it probably happened in a relatively short period of time. That like anybody. I mean, you hear that first loud noise, you startle, and so you don't quite know what to make of it. But certainly, with two other shots being fired in today's world, unfortunately, where we have situations like this, people start running for cover. And, again, it's just very chaotic, you know?
And even with eye witnesses, you're going to get a lot of people saying things about what took place and it may not be all be consistent. In fact, it probably won't be consistent, because people have different recollections, different memories, how many shots, you know, all those kinds of things, where one shooter, two shooters, did you see them, did you not see them, and they have to comb through all that.
But right now, step one, secure the scene. That's the first thing you do. The rest of that, you'll be able to take care of, but you have to secure the scene. The other part that I need to mention, you've got families, you've got human beings in that store that could have been injured or, heaven forbid, maybe fatally shot, you know, family members arriving at the scene. They know their loved one was there to shop or were, and so you've got to control that as well.
So there are a lot of moving parts when you have something like this taking place.
BROWN (voice over): There are. And that is why it takes so long to really get firm information. Andy McCabe, as you noted earlier, those field reports are often wrong as different law enforcement entities and different witnesses, you try to pool all of that together to see, okay, what are the facts here. So we are still waiting to hear more from police.
But we are hearing from this eyewitness who described an urgent but orderly escape from the store. This eyewitness saying that they heard three bangs and everybody was running. They went out the cargo bay, jumped underneath the loading truck that was there and ran up the back. We still don't know if anyone was injured or even killed there. We don't have that information yet, but we are getting these eyewitness reports.
How critical are these eyewitness accounts for investigators, as Chief Ramsey said, you know, you could hear different things from different people as they recall what happened, but how critical are these eyewitness accounts?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (voice over): You know, they're incredibly important, because it's often the only intelligence you get from inside the location early on.
[18:35:02]
And as with all eyewitness reports, you know, you take them with a grain of salt. I mean, people under stress and startled from the sound of a gunshot, and next thing they know they find themselves fleeing for their lives, their memories are not always the most perfectly clear, accurate and reliable.
But, nevertheless, you're going to talk to every single person who gets out of that building to see what they saw, what they heard, who was around them, who was moving, hear if they are able to identify any victims or casualties that might be lying on the ground and where those people are located in the store. It's all very important facts for the investigators.
They will then arm the assault teams, the tactical teams with that intelligence before they make any sort of entry.
BROWN (voice over): I want to bring in CNN's own Lucy Kafanov, she is there on the scene. Lucy, what can you tell us?
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pam, this is like nothing that I've seen here in Boulder, a massive police presence. We have agencies from all across the localities here, SWAT teams, very heavy security presence.
We saw some SWAT vehicles driving away from the King Soopers. We're not really sure what's going on there, but that's part of the issue. The police have not given us any concrete information to go by. All we know is what we've seen in the footage so far, which was there was one man, a shirtless man who was handcuffed. He was led away by police into an ambulance. The ambulance was seen driving away. We saw several people led away from the streets.
Right now this whole area is cordoned off. There's a very heavy police presence here. We have not had any statements from police aside from telling folks to stay away from this area, to try to keep away from this area.
The earliest in the day that we had a sense of something going wrong was around 2:45 P.M., that's when the tweets started emerging about a possible active shooter in this King Sooper Store here in Boulder. People would have been shopping at that time. I mean, it's not as busy obviously during COVID as it might have been in previous times, but I can't really image what the people who were in that store must have been going through.
But we do see now some sort of heavily-armed tactical gear officers walking away calmly from this location. We're not sure where they're headed. Again, we have not had any concrete statements from officers about sort of what's going on at the moment. The picture is very unclear at the moment, Pam.
BROWN (voice over): It is unclear. Basically, we're seeing what you're seeing in large part in this video.
You said that there was one man handcuffed who was shirtless. So as you tried to sort out what is going on at the scene, do you have any idea if there is still an active shooter situation, assuming there was one, in that supermarket? Do we have any idea of what's going on inside of there?
KAFANOV: Police here aren't commenting. I tried to contact the PIO officer in Boulder. The voicemail box was full. I'm sure everyone is trying to get that information right now.
We just saw a footage of that man. He was not wearing any shoes. He was just wearing a pair of black shorts. His leg was bloodied, no shirt, again, walk away in handcuffs into that ambulance and that ambulance was taken away. But we don't know who he is or what relationship he has to what went on inside that King Soopers, Pam.
BROWN (voice over): And you have mention that people there seem, you know, that law enforcement there -- there's many law enforcement from different agencies. We're seeing this video. They look somewhat relaxed. I mean, what is the sort of -- what does it feel like being there on the scene?
KAFANOV: Well, we are maybe, you know, a parking lot away from the actual location. I would say that the stance of the police officers is calm, it is relaxed. We're not really sure what's happening, quite frankly.
Like I mentioned, right before we went on air, I saw two sort of heavy tactical SWAT vehicles driving away from the King Sooper. Again, don't know what that indicates, if things are wrapping up or not. The mood is tense, as it would be, in a situation where you had an active shooter in the middle of the day in an American city. But, yes, the officers do seem calm.
But it is a massive police presence. I mean, there are vehicles as far as the eye can see, red and blue lights flashing everywhere. People have been urged again, to stay away from the area, so there is a lot of media and law enforcement, but residents are being told to stay away while the investigation or the operation continues. We don't really know what it is that's happening inside.
BROWN (voice over): So, we know Boulder Police --
KAFANOV: And actually, we are -- Pam, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We are actually seeing FBI officers now with their vests walking towards a vehicle, so we do know that FBI is now on the scene.
[18:40:04]
That's an important development. And they seem to be walking away towards different parking lot to communicate with some of the police officers there. So, in addition to the different agencies that we've seen locally, the FBI is also now showing a presence on the ground.
BROWN (voice over): Okay. Lucy Kafanov, thank you for bringing us what you can from the ground as we await more information from police, but as you noted, the FBI agents have arrived on the ground there. Our Andy McCabe told us earlier there. They are assisting the other police who are there.
We're still trying to get more information, what's going on, but we do know from our reporting that one man was handcuffed, he was shirtless, he had blood on his leg and that is all we know. We don't know if there were any injuries, if anyone was killed but we will hopefully get more information soon from police. And we'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back. We are following this possible active shooter situation in Boulder, Colorado, at a supermarket that started unfolding at 2:45 P.M. Colorado time. We're told by our reporter on the ground, Lucy Kafanov, that there was arrested, a shirtless man that has been arrested, but we don't have any more details.
[18:45:03]
But we don't have any more details. We don't know if anyone was injured or killed. But we do know there is a lot of law enforcement there on the scene, including federal authorities like the FBI and ATF.
And we're also hearing more from eyewitnesses. Let's listen to one eyewitness who was there grocery shopping there today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard one loud bang. Thought somebody just dropped something, an employee or something, and then another. By the third one, everybody was running.
We ran to the back of the store and found our way into the employee back of house. Some people were kind of running into the pantry. Employees were telling people, no, this is the exit. We went out the cargo bay and jumped underneath the loading truck that was there and ran up the back of the hill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And let's hear from another eyewitness speaking to KMGH.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just there in the store, just going in to get mushrooms and milk. And we were separated at first, but I just heard a big bang. I was like that's kind of weird. I don't know if it was a gunshot or whatever, but I was -- it was like probably three seconds before I heard another, just like, bang, bang, bang, bang.
I immediately sprinted over to her like we got to get out of here and I said, hey, we got to get out of her and like first to exit door. I told her to run, and I ended up leaving her, which she really hated.
But I went back and was just by the exit making sure people were getting out. I remember seeing an older woman that was there. And she's like, I don't know if she heard the gunfire, but she was just in shock. She was in crazy shock.
Yeah, it's just like eye opening for everybody. I think it really just like convicts us a lot, because we really want to share the gospel to people and like share Jesus and like the love that he has for people. And you just never know when you're going to go. We can walk past someone during the day and they can dilate on and they didn't know who god was.
REPORTER: Did you see the shooter?
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: No. We saw people like running towards, towards us, like towards the back. I thought that was the safest place. I did talk to someone who was at the front who just walked in --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And saw someone go down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he saw someone go down. It's just a terrible thing but --
REPORTER: What do you remember after the gunshots? What do you remember seeing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she ran off. I told her just get the heck like miles away from here. I stayed like in the back area like where a ton of people were coming through, because I was like this guy could like come out and start shooting these guys. I want to make sure they're as far as away as they can be. So, like Michael, he's great, he's lovely, but we were helping people get away.
And I remember we were seeing more people run away, the cops coming out. Their response was awesome. Thank god for these guys.
REPORTER: How fast would you say it was until police arrived?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's probably like -- two minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably -- yeah, two minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like two and a half minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or maybe less, yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, but we're just hoping that everybody really just has a moment to think about their hearts and where they're at with god and know that Jesus loves them and is crazy about them.
REPORTER: How many injured?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know, we saw a livestream of a couple people on the ground. I think there was around ten that we saw on the live stream.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were a couple like in the front of King Supers, and then there was some like --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I'm going to bring in a former FBI Deputy Director Andy McCabe.
Andy, what is your reaction to what we just heard from the eyewitnesses there?
MCCABE: You know, it's exactly what you expect to hear from folks caught in an intense crisis situation, the chaos of hearing gunshots and running for their lives and getting outside and realizing, okay, maybe I need to help some others to get out, an incredibly admirable thing to do.
When you kind of really try to push on that and sort through, like, exactly who did you see and where were they, that's when the details start to get a little hazy because it's hard to remember things in a situation like that.
BROWN: It's been two hours since this situation unfolded. Lucy Kafanov, our reporter on the ground said this started at 2:45. Are you surprised that we don't have any more concrete information now from police?
MCCABE: It's a little bit surprising but I think they're trying to get their hands around this thing and understand what they have before they go forward and tell the word what they have.
I have to say from the video I'm seeing, just from the video you were able to put up, there were a lot of law enforcement folks standing around there not at kind of pique attention. It definitely has the look of a scene that's kind of maybe winding down.
BROWN: Exactly. As you say that, now they're running.
Let me ask you this in terms of the delay.
[18:50:00]
You said it's a little surprising. We know that one person was arrested, according to Lucy Kafanov. Could that be part of the delay, they want to speak to this person perhaps before other information is put out into the public sphere?
MCCABE: Well, you know, I think, you know, usually the very first media interaction you see in these situations, you have a police chief or a commanding officer on the scene to come out and just give you the very, very basics of, you know, how many shooters and how many victims, that sort of thing.
I don't know that there's any problem in getting out that sort of information while you maybe are still talking to a subject. You certainly would not reveal the subject's identity about him or her while you're doing that process.
But it does seem like they could kind of share with the public just the most basic elements of what's happened here.
BROWN: Right, and keeping an eye on the Boulder, Colorado Police Twitter thread and there's still no updates didn't say anything about was actually going on here. But I want to ask you, Andy, we saw these two FBI agents that arrived on the scene and they were apparently going to a car.
Walk us through what they might be doing there on the scene. MCCABE: So, you know, we -- the FBI is going to push whatever
resources, whatever personnel they have in the area to that scene, to immediately make contact with the incident command, those are the folks where all aspects of the response kind of run on the ground, and to let them know that we're there and we're able to assess with, you know, all kinds of different resources and just kind of make sure that they're aware of our readiness and willingness to help.
So, that's likely who we saw, that could have been two agents and covering a league somewhere, in a nearby neighborhood or something like that, and got a radio call from the Denver field office to get over to that scene right away.
They'll also be calling back to the field office, to their chain of command to let their leadership in the Denver field office understand what's happening, so that we can start positioning the sort of source of resources, like for instance maybe calling out a SWAT team to assist with the clearing of the building there, the supermarket. There's all kinds of different ways we can support a local police department in a crisis like this.
BROWN: All right. Andy McCabe, with us as we continue to watch this unfolding situation there in Boulder, Colorado.
After this quick break, we'll go back to our reporter on the ground, Lucy Kafanov. We'll find out more about why these people, why those people appear to be running there on the scene.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:57:22]
BROWN: Welcome back.
We are monitoring this breaking news out of Boulder, Colorado, where there appears to be active shooter situation in a grocery store there.
And I want to go to one of the eyewitnesses, who is in that grocery store when this unfolded. Let's listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got the call for my daughter and my grandchildren, and my son-in-law but, we walked into the pharmacy for him to get a COVID-19 shot. The shooter came in, shot the woman in front of them they hid, ran upstairs were hiding in a code closet for the last hour, and trying to stay in contact with my daughter.
They're okay, they are just now out the back, half a dozen storm troopers, half a dozen cops came in through the roof got him and then told him to stay quiet. They were OK. This is not OK with me, and this is --
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Not okay with me, I can imagine that feeling.
Phil Mudd, I want to get final thoughts to you.
MUDD,: I'm still nervous. I mean, we've been focused on the place at this point. I'm worried about the people. That is the pace that you'll be transitioning to overnight, with this individual with any other individuals, clustered people who think like he or she does.
When the place that we see is secured, Pamela, the second question is the people. And we've got a ways to go on that.
BROWN: We've got a ways to go, we don't even have information yet in terms of who was arrested, what else they're looking for with the situation is in that grocery store right now.
Chief Ramsey, what do you think? What is your final reaction?
RAMSEY: Well, I mean things will start to unfold slowly. I'm not surprised that there hasn't been a real press conference yet. The information is still pretty sketchy. It depends on the complexity of the scene. How many injured were dead that you might have?
The one individual, there is humanness under arrest. He may or may not be unrestee. You might have another person there that is the suspect. We just don't know.
And right now, but they're trying to do is sort out so they can give you as much real information as they can. But remember, it will be preliminary information. It won't be anything that may not change a little later, as the investigation progresses.
BROWN: Right, as we've been talking about so often, the information coming out in those early field reports, it's inaccurate because things are chaotic, they're trying to sort through all the information. We do hope to find out more very soon,
Phil Mudd, Chief Ramsey, thank you so much.
I'm Pamela Brown and thank you for watching. Our breaking news coverage continues, right now with "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT".
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