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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Calls Early Voting "Stupid Stuff" After Pushing For It; Trump Attacks GOP State Senator For Not Changing Election Law; DOJ: Suspect Left Letter Detailing His Plans To Kill Trump. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 23, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --and Gary joins us now. I mean, it's so sad to see those kids kind of feeling the impact of these comments.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it really is sad, Anderson. And they're just children. And every one of the children I talked to, at the church service, want to stay in Springfield. They like their friends. They like their schools. They like the routines.
And among the older kids I talked, with the teenagers, who follow the news, they also like the fact that the Mayor of this city, and the Governor of this state, are supportive.
Anderson.
COOPER: Gary Tuchman, thanks so much.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Donald Trump rallying this evening, in Pennsylvania, tearing into Vice President Harris, insisting it's too late for another debate, while criticizing the early voting that his own party is pushing.
Plus, I have new reporting for you, on Mark Robinson, tonight. The embattled Republican candidate for North Carolina governor, has just lost a big-name supporter, over disturbing comments that he once made on a porn site.
And we're seeing, tonight, for the first time, the chilling words of the suspect, in that second assassination attempt, of Donald Trump, on the golf course.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Donald Trump is on the campaign trail, in Pennsylvania, tonight, delivering a mixed message about early voting to his supporters, just six weeks out from Election Day. From that stage, tonight, the former President encouraged Pennsylvanians to get out and vote early in one breath, then pushed baseless conspiracies about doing so, moments later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Early voting begins in Pennsylvania, over the next two weeks, and we need each and every one of you to go out. Just don't take anything for granted.
We got to get out and vote. You can start right away. You know that, right?
Now we have this stupid stuff, where you can vote 45 days early. I wonder what the hell happens during that 45. Let's move the -- see these votes? We've got about a million votes in there. Let's move them. We're fixing the air conditioner in the room, right?
No, it's terrible. What happened the last time was disgraceful, including right here. But we're not going to let it happen again. Too -- you know too big to rig, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Talk about whiplash for those in the audience tonight.
Trump went after the Vice President, on that campaign stage, tonight, for promises that she's made out on the trail. And that comes as he has continued to resist her challenge, to meet him on the debate stage, for at least one more time, before November 5th.
Harris has been arguing, there's a lot more for those two to talk about, after she formally accepted CNN's invite, for a second showdown, exactly one month from today, on October 23rd.
For now, Trump says he won't meet her, on the debate stage, because? You guessed it. Early voting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The problem with another debate is that it's just too late. Voting has already started.
I'd love to, in many ways. But it's too late.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, I should note, we did not hear Trump make that argument, about debates, when early voting was underway, during his first two presidential bids.
The final debate, in 2016, between Trump and Hillary Clinton, was held on October 19th.
The final one of 2020, between Trump and President Biden, October 22nd. That was 12 days before that election.
Now, Trump's advisers are telling me that for now, it does not seem like he's going to change his mind, on meeting Harris, on the debate stage, again. Though they acknowledge, based on comments like these, it's ultimately up to Trump himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just don't know. But we'll think about it.
So, because we've done two debates and because they were successful, there will be no third debate.
I did great with the debates, and I think they've answered everything. But maybe if I got in the right mood, I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources, tonight, are top political insiders.
Former Harris communications director, Jamal Simmons.
Former Trump White House Communications Director, Alyssa Farah Griffin.
And CNN's Chief Media Analyst, Brian Stelter.
Alyssa, I should note, it was Republicans in Pennsylvania, who passed these early voting laws that Trump is now complaining about, what that looks like. But that's certainly not what we've been hearing from his daughter-in-law, who is the RNC Co-chair, who was saying, Yes, we do want people to early vote.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: This goes back. It's giving me 2020 whiplash, when his campaign was wanting him to promote early voting, mail-in voting as well, during the pandemic, and then he would cast out on it. It's the same thing.
He's got something, intellectually, he cannot accept the fact that you can vote early, it can be safe, it can be tabulated. He just has this very sort of arcane way of looking at it.
But there's also the secondary thing that comes with Trump, which is he wants to preemptively cast doubt on the results, in case he loses. He's incapable of losing, and of accepting that he lost. So he's done that in a number of ways, just as he did in 2020. We heard him blaming Jewish leaders. He had a dig at Catholics. He cast doubt on the system.
So, it's kind of twofold. He genuinely does not, in my understanding, trust early voting. But he also wants to have something to blame if he loses.
[21:05:00] COLLINS: Well, and a lot of other Republicans have been critical of what he's -- his mixed messages on this, because they wanted to help them, help them in a critical Senate race that's happening in Pennsylvania.
And Jamal, Senator J.D. Vance, his running mate, was also talking about early voting, when he was on the stage, in North Carolina, tonight. Listen to what he had to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH), 2024 VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This country has gone from Election Day to election season. But it is what it is, and we got to play by the rules that are set.
So, use early voting, use mail-in voting, use voting on Election Day, whatever you can, to get out there, and make sure that if a 100 people plan to vote for Donald Trump, a 100 people actually get out there and do vote for Donald Trump.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, if you're a Republican voter, it's not totally clear what they want you to do here.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VP HARRIS: It's not, except for the leader of the party telling you that he doesn't particularly invest in this process. Right, here's the problem.
COLLINS: But his party is investing a lot in early voting--
SIMMONS: Absolutely.
COLLINS: --in Pennsylvania, I should note.
SIMMONS: Absolutely. And remember, we have, you know, we've all lived through this. I mean, remember Georgia, those Georgia Senate elections, which probably got skunked, because Donald Trump went down there -- or didn't -- and skunked them.
Here's what's happening, to me. He's not playing to win the actual game. He's playing to get to overtime, believing he can work the refs, and then try to win it there.
So, what's happening is this is all about just getting the vote close enough that when they get to the day after Election Day, all that legal process, the lawyers they've got, the 150 or so lawyers, they're putting in 15 battleground states, whose job it is to challenge votes at the voting site, to challenge votes in the elect -- in the board -- election board process, and then collect evidence for lawsuits. This is what this is all about. It's not actually about winning the game.
COLLINS: Well, and-- BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST, AUTHOR, "NETWORK OF LIES": Yes.
COLLINS: --we know they challenged it, last time. Obviously, we saw all the lawsuits, dozens of them that were thrown out by courts.
That's a great question that Jamal poses there, which is--
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: --is this going to be -- are they going to be better at challenging the election, this time, if it -- if it's close, and if it doesn't go the way, they want.
STELTER: I think they are much better-prepared. Now, I've talked to Democrats inside, Super PACs, who are preparing for this possibility, who are already in September, preparing for November, assuming that this is going to happen, right? They are also laying the groundwork. It may be it's a little bit of mutually assured destruction that both sides are planning for this.
But I think you're right, Jamal, to call this out. And we, in the media, need to point out that it's happening, as it's happening, so that people are not surprised in November, so that people are not caught off guard.
In some of the documents that we've seen from 2020 that only came out earlier this year, in litigation, in Wisconsin. One of the Trump allies described the strategy as being busily (ph), to create a cloud of confusion. It wasn't about when you're losing. It was about creating so much confusion that no one would know what happened.
COLLINS: So essentially--
STELTER: And I hear that's what's happening now, again.
COLLINS: --they could argue, Well, we're litigating this in court.
STELTER: Right.
COLLINS: So, I mean, this is what Trump wanted the DOJ to do, and Bill Barr to do, in 2020, which was just to say that they were doing something. And then -- oh, Jeff Clark wanted, they were trying to get him to do this, to say there was something there, so they could point to something, so the lawmakers--
STELTER: Yes, yes.
COLLINS: --on Capitol Hill could have something to talk about.
STELTER: So there's something there, even though it's not legitimate. And that's why perhaps we've already seen some lawsuits filed, ahead of time, challenging certain early voting rules again.
FARAH GRIFFIN: This is also why Donald Trump, by the way, played heavily in Secretary of State races and even in State House races, which a president traditionally wouldn't really put his finger on. But those are avenues that he can challenge the election results.
So, as he talked to the Michigan representatives in 2020, he wants to have allies there so that he can try to challenge it, if he were to lose.
COLLINS: Well and this--
SIMMONS: And then change the rules in as many places as possible, like Georgia. Change the rules so that they can make it as difficult as possible and as much of a mess as possible. So, a hand-count of every vote in state? That's insane.
COLLINS: Which -- and something as a hand-count--
STELTER: To cause confusion.
COLLINS: --has not been as accurate when they initially do it. It may require another hand-count that we've seen.
SIMMONS: And it's going to take days. This is not something that happens immediately, when you've got millions of votes on the table.
COLLINS: Yes, it's a good point.
And this all comes as we're debating over debates, and whether or not there is going to be another showdown.
I want to get your take on why Harris wants another debate so bad.
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: But Brian, on just Trump himself.
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: I've talked to a bunch of his allies and advisers, who say, right now, we're not doing any more debates--
STELTER: Right.
COLLINS: --We're standing by what he said. No more debates.
Do you think that Trump, though, can resist 70 million viewers, two weeks before the election, if it's as close as the numbers we're looking at today, show us?
STELTER: No. That's why -- and this is a very live possibility. CNN had been working behind-the-scenes, for weeks, trying to get to the point where, on Saturday, Kamala Harris said yes, and challenged Trump to say yes. And both campaigns received a letter, a three-page letter, offering this debate.
I noticed that Trump said, Yes, it's too late. But he also said, I'd love to do it. I thought that was the more interesting part of his quote on Saturday, I'd love to debate. It's just too late. Historically, it's not too late. The final debates in 2016 and 2020 were basically around the same time that CNN is offering, October 23rd, this year.
I think he will -- I think there's a very real chance he will agree, for two reasons. One, the ratings, as you said, huge audience that he can reach. And number two, is he really going to let J.D. Vance have the last word? Does he trust his running mate to have the last word at the debates?
[21:10:00]
There's one more debate, October 1st, the VP debate coming up, next week. Right now, that's the only debate scheduled. I don't believe that Donald Trump wants J.D. Vance to have the last word, on the debate stage.
COLLINS: Alyssa, I mean, you worked for Trump. What do you--
FARAH GRIFFIN: I am--
COLLINS: What's your guess?
STELTER: Am I crazy?
FARAH GRIFFIN: I am incredibly bullish there will be another presidential debate.
STELTER: Oh, OK.
FARAH GRIFFIN: I think that he -- if he sees any internal points that even look tight, you cannot turn down the option to have 70 million eyeballs glued to you. And I will say. He performed substantially better in the second 2020 debate than he did the first one.
SIMMONS: Interesting--
FARAH GRIFFIN: Some would argue he really kind of helped lose in the stand-by-stand-back one. But he was more ready.
And I think, listen, Trump's not even as sharp as he was in 2020. There's a case that he could actually do better in the second debate.
STELTER: And he should--
SIMMONS: I think--
STELTER: --want to go back to the scene of the crime.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Exactly.
STELTER: CNN is offering this debate in Atlanta.
SIMMONS: Yes.
STELTER: The same place where Trump defeated Biden. FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes.
STELTER: So, there's something about that, I think, emotionally.
COLLINS: Well, and he kind of regrets that, because it pushed Biden out of the race.
STELTER: Well that's a good -- well that's true. That's a good point.
COLLINS: And he wishes he was running against President Biden.
SIMMONS: That's true.
COLLINS: Jamal, from the Harris perspective, what does she get out in a second debate? Because she had a strong performance. People weren't sure how she would do.
SIMMONS: Yes.
COLLINS: Is there a risk and a reward factor here for her?
SIMMONS: Yes, some people would argue, take the money and run, right? Like, You won the last time. Do it. Take it. Take those benefits, and keep going.
I think the campaign is showing, first of all, a lot of confidence, because they're going after Donald Trump, on this very question.
STELTER: Yes.
SIMMONS: And they're even taunting him a little bit. This -- one of the reasons you get him to do it is because they're basically calling him a chicken. And I don't know if Donald Trump's going to be able to withstand six weeks of being called a chicken.
STELTER: So many animal references. I'm sure--
(CROSSTALK)
SIMMONS: We got sports. We got animals. We're going to do the whole thing.
COLLINS: Animals would like to be left alone.
STELTER: Well, the cats and dogs, yes. Hey, sorry, Jamal.
SIMMONS: But no, I think that -- but I think what they're doing is something that's a lot of confidence. They want to show that they believe this candidate can do what she needs to do in a debate.
And it doesn't matter if, as Alyssa says, and she's not wrong, simply the person who's the incumbent, and Donald Trump in this case, is looking like the incumbent. That's better in the second debate than they do in the first debate.
So even -- so, the danger, the danger for the campaign, is that if Donald Trump lands as a good blow, if he just does one good thing, that he can go out and talk about? He'll try to turn that into a moment.
But the bigger danger is that Donald Trump can't do it, and that she looks even stronger, as voters are looking to get one more touch and feel of her. They want to see her one more time, a little scratch and sniff, make sure that she's actually the person that they want, and they can--
COLLINS: Well and--
SIMMONS: --and vote for her on Election Day.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Well it's that 28 percent of voters who want to know more about her. That's a prime opportunity to do it.
SIMMONS: Right.
COLLINS: Well and -- but Trump would also have that moment, because those people who are not early voting, who are tuning in, are the people who have not yet cast their ballots, potentially, and want to see what Trump has to say.
And of course, it was his campaign manager, who was walking around with business cards, that said, anywhere, any time--
STELTER: Any time.
COLLINS: --any place, about debates.
But Alyssa. I want to ask you, because we hear a lot from Trump, and he was criticizing her, tonight, for reversing her policy on fracking.
We hear from Trump on his economic policy. He's been talking about tariffs that he wants to impose, if he wins a second election. And he's been saying, he doesn't feel like he needs to go to Congress.
Today, he was sitting in front of two John Deere tractors, when he said this about the company moving some of its manufacturing to Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just noticed behind me, John Deere tractors.
I know a lot about John Deere. I love the company.
But as you know, they've announced a few days ago that they're going to move a lot of their manufacturing business to Mexico. I'm just notifying John Deere, right now. If you do that, we're putting a 200 percent tariff on everything that you want to sell into the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FARAH GRIFFIN: I mean, somewhere Paul Ryan is rolling over. I mean, he's not -- he's still with us. But it's -- there's nothing about that that's conservative, economically.
It's also just terrible policy, to threaten a beloved company, with a strong brand name, and a huge population of workers, in the country, that you're going to penalize them if they leave the country. Of course, a better response would be, We're going to make the conditions better here that you're not going to want to leave.
His message, in 2016, and to some degree, 2020, was onshoring American jobs, rebuilding manufacturing, investing in the American worker. Now it's something very different. It's retaliatory. It's about sticking it to China, but not thinking about the costs that fall to consumers.
STELTER: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: He's not running as a Republican. I cannot point this out enough.
SIMMONS: Yes--
STELTER: As the proud owner of a John Deere tractor in my barn, that sounds like a strongman.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes.
STELTER: That sounds like a strongman. Not a Republican or Democrat.
COLLINS: Well--
SIMMONS: And it seems like the two things he believes in, tariffs and anti-immigration.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes.
SIMMONS: Those are two things he's been consistent about.
COLLINS: Hope you got a good--
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: Do you want to come over and taking it out for a drive?
COLLINS: I love a John Deere tractor.
STELTER: The fields do need plowing, this time of year.
COLLINS: Brian Stelter, thank you.
Alyssa and Jamal will be right back with us.
Because up next, we're going to talk about why Trump is lashing out, tonight, at a Republican, who is refusing to do his bidding, 43 days out from the election.
Plus, I have new reporting for you, tonight, on the Republican who is running for governor in North Carolina, in the wake of his porn site scandal. Mark Robinson just lost a big-name supporter. [21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, a decision by a little-known state senator, in Nebraska, could have major implications in the race for president. And Donald Trump is not happy about it.
That's because the Republican lawmaker is refusing to go along with a push, by the former President, and his allies, to change a 30-year-old state election law, roughly 40 days before the election.
Tonight, Trump is calling State senator, Mike McDonnell, quote, just another "Grandstander." Trump and his allies, see, had Wanted McDonnell to help Republicans get enough support, to make Nebraska a winner-take-all state in November, effectively handing Trump an extra electoral vote, and potentially taking one away from Vice President Harris.
[21:20:00]
Nebraska is one of two states that awards electoral votes, by congressional district. And Omaha is seen as that blue dot in the red state, giving Democrats a shot at a piece of Nebraska, every four years.
Now, to understand just how decisive that one vote could be, come November. Listen to what Senator Lindsey Graham had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): To my friends in Nebraska, that one electoral vote could be the difference between Harris being president or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining my political sources, here at the table, tonight, is the Chair of the Nebraska Democratic Party, Jane Kleeb.
And it's great to have you here.
Because there had been this very intense lobbying effort, on Mike McDonnell, to go along with this, to have enough support, to call in a special session and change this law.
JANE KLEEB, CHAIR, NEBRASKA DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Yes.
COLLINS: What do you make of the fact that he resisted this?
KLEEB: Nebraska has this beautiful, long tradition of being very independent. We have a non-partisan unicameral. We have 100 percent public power.
And Mike McDonnell really is a son of the state. He decided that he was going to really stand up, to Trump's bullies, to the lobbying efforts by Trump and his cronies, and decided that he was going to say, Look, if you of any political party want to change the electoral vote system, that shouldn't be right before an election, and you should put it on the ballot, let Nebraska voters decide.
And I think what you're going to see is a lot of voters really defending Mike, of both parties.
What we see in Nebraska is both Republicans, Democrats and Independents, they want a fair system. They want politicians who are actually going to say what they mean. And that's exactly what Mike did.
And he said he wasn't going to change his mind, on this, months ago. Yet, all of the lobbying, all of the efforts, came in by Trump. And he stood his ground.
COLLINS: Yes, a personal call from Trump, on speaker, with Lindsey Graham, didn't even change his mind.
And Jamal, the reason this matters so much, and that Trump is calling in, to try to change this is, if on Election Night, this could be the story that we're all talking about. If Harris wins Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and she gets this one vote in Nebraska, she could have 270 votes. She could win.
SIMMONS: That could be the 270, and in a night that could stretch on.
We just talked about how Georgia may go on for a couple of days, or Arizona, or one of these states that could be so razor-thin. She might -- and North Carolina, even. That might be the place where the 270 comes, which might make the other ones a little less stressful.
It won't stop Donald Trump from fighting it, though. Just because he didn't win the day doesn't mean he won't keep pushing on this.
COLLINS: You know what I'm interested in, though, is Trump is fighting to change this law. But he's not really fighting to win this vote.
KLEEB: Exactly.
COLLINS: I mean.
KLEEB: Which is what I was going to say. So, we have all these massive blue dot signs, and Harris and Walz signs all over the district. And Trump doesn't have a single office open. He has one staff member on the ground.
Versus the Democrats in the Kamala Harris and Walz campaign, we have 25 coordinated campaign staff, three offices open. We're competing for every vote. We don't take anything for granted.
And if Trump is so worried about winning, compete, like get in the field and compete.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Well and Donald-- COLLINS: Well, and look at the spending, Alyssa. I mean, just I want your thoughts on this. Trump is spending about $100,000 -- a $100,000. The Harris-Walz campaign has spent more than $5 million, in the Omaha market.
FARAH GRIFFIN: I mean, it's the delta there.
This is what Donald Trump does, though. As much as he moans about, the system is rigged and stacked against him. He actually likes to get in and change the system in his favor.
I think of the Republican primary. He changed many of the contests to be winner-take-all, so that and Nikki Haley or someone didn't have a more formidable chance of taking him on and challenging him. This is exactly the same thing.
He's actually far more, frankly, guilty of trying to bend the rules in his favor than the Democrats have been in recent years. And it just goes to show, he's not trying to win it. He just wants to have that extra, you know, trying to get it without having to do the work, there.
COLLINS: Which is so ironic, given, when we have Republicans on, and we ask them about not certifying the votes, or not saying the election was fair in 2020, they point a lot of times to election law changes, before the 2020 election, during the pandemic.
But here, the Republicans are trying to change a state law, 40 days out from an election.
SIMMONS: Kaitlan, are we expecting intellectual consistency, out of the Donald Trump campaign? I mean.
COLLINS: I'd like an effort.
SIMMONS: Look, that's not the game that they're playing. They're playing win, right? This is all about power politics. Donald Trump's never been somebody, he's not even consistent with a statement he may have made earlier in the day if he doesn't think that it will help him, later in the evening.
So, I think you just can't look to Donald Trump, and do something, that's going to be something that we're going to look to -- look back at in political science books, and say, Oh, here was an argument that really won the day, at the moment of Donald Trump's election.
COLLINS: The other state we're watching closely is, of course, North Carolina, and seeing what's going to happen there. And the governor, the Republican nominee for governor, Alyssa, has just been totally embroiled in scandal, since KFILE reported, about comments that he made, on a porn site, a decade ago -- about a decade ago.
I just got reporting, before we came on air, tonight. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution had reached out to Governor Kemp's office, because he spoke at a fundraiser for Robinson, just last month. Brian Kemp, the very popular Republican governor of Georgia, and also the Co-chair of the Republican Governors Association, the Vice Chair, said tonight that he's no longer supporting Robinson.
What do you make of that?
[21:25:00]
FARAH GRIFFIN: It's a significant move by one of the most popular Republicans, in the country, and someone who seemed to have a post- Donald-Trump-future. If Donald Trump loses, I think a lot of eyes will look to him and Glenn Youngkin as the future of the party.
I actually genuinely believe Brian Kemp is just a principled person. I don't know that I think this is purely a political play. He's at times stood by people like Brad Raffensperger, who Donald Trump has gone after, and people in his state who have been on the receiving end of his backlash.
But listen. North Carolina, a state that could help determine this election. Donald Trump and the North Carolina GOP decided to run a radioactive candidate, that before KFILE uncovered any of this, had a bad enough record. We already knew about Holocaust denialism. We already knew about anti-Semitic comments. This is just the icing on the cake.
And frankly, if he ends up being a drag, which is rare, he could actually end up hurting Donald Trump, in a state he needs to win.
COLLINS: Well, and--
SIMMONS: Listen. When you're in a state like Georgia, one thing you don't do, you don't attack Krispy Kreme donuts. I did, and got in trouble. And you don't attack Martin Luther King. And a lot of people in that state do.
This is a guy, who's come out and said bad things about Martin Luther King. He said he's pro-slavery, and would own some if it were legal, and he says he's a Black Nazi. And so, you can't be pro-Hitler and anti-King, and expect to do well, in a state like Georgia.
And Brian Kemp's a good politician. He knows that's not where he wants to be.
COLLINS: Well, and when you're looking at North Carolina, on this issue, I think a lot of Republicans think Mark Robinson is going to lose the race for governor, that Josh Stein, the Democrat's going to win.
But even if they're conceding that, what about it depressing down- ballot? I mean, you're very familiar with state elections, and what this looks like. And that's a real concern, it seems, that party members have.
KLEEB: There's no question. First, North Carolina has one of the best state party chairs. And so, shout-out to Anderson. I know she's on CNN a lot.
What happens on the ticket, especially with younger voters, they're actually hyper-focused on down-ballot races, and because they know how important abortion laws, climate change, issues of race and criminal justice happen at the state level, not at the federal level.
So, you can see a lot of young people, and women, and communities of color, really focusing in on the governor's race and down-ballot. And then that -- then they vote up-ticket, right?
And some voters obviously go to vote for Harris and Walz, or Trump and--
COLLINS: Vance.
KLEEB: --Vance. I was like, who's he -- who decided to actually put their name on the ballot with him.
And then vote down-ballot. So, it goes both ways. And so, there's no question that I think this helps Democrats.
COLLINS: So, if you were in this position, and this was your party, you would be concerned that it would affect everyone else on that ticket?
KLEEB: No question. The Republicans are terrified. And I think this is hopefully going to be one of those moments that shocks the Republican back into the middle. But I think we're probably at least another two election cycles, before they wake up and realize that they actually have to come back to the middle, to win elections again.
COLLINS: Yes. We heard from Vance today, Senator Vance, on this. He was asked by our Embed, Kit Maher, if he would condemn, what he said, to disavow Mark Robinson. And he essentially said, Mark Robinson needs to speak for himself. And he said that Mark Robinson said these comments aren't true.
I mean, CNN's reporting is that they were his username, his email. They look true.
And I just wonder what you make of how -- compared to how Kemp is talking about this, to how Vance is talking about this.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Listen. Vance doesn't really have the freedom to go out on a limb and say, like, I'm going to condemn it. He takes his cues from Donald Trump. Donald Trump's not someone who admits fault, so is the candidates he endorsed were bad. He kind of takes the never apologize, and never be apologizing for someone else approach. So, I think that's what Vance is doing.
But I think as someone like Thom Tillis, who in a cycle is going to have a very competitive race, in North Carolina, a consummate centrist Republican, who actually gets things done for the state, who's going to have a tougher race because of candidates like this, besmirching the name of the GOP, and the party, and making it look worse.
SIMMONS: That Trump-Vance relationship sounds super-healthy.
FARAH GRIFFIN: I mean, where's Mike Pence? I think you have an idea of how--
(CROSSTALK)
SIMMONS: You can't speak out. You can't--
(CROSSTALK)
FARAH GRIFFIN: --relationship is.
COLLINS: OK. But for Democrats, what does Harris need to do? Because you're looking at this polling, today, and you see that Trump is ahead of her, by five, in Arizona. No clear winner for Georgia and North Carolina. They're within that margin of error.
I mean, if you're the Harris campaign, how do they take advantage of this, with six weeks to go?
SIMMONS: I mean, look, I think you see what they're trying to do now, which is creating ads that tie Trump to Mark Robinson. They're going to keep trying to make this case over and over again. She's going to keep showing up there.
The one thing that's happening in North Carolina that's different than Georgia is that in North Carolina, you're seeing White college- educated voters, who have increased in their percentages in that state, and they are more likely to vote for her. In Georgia, that's not necessarily true. Those White college-educated voters are still voting conservative.
So, even though you've got more African Americans in Georgia, which is how you win. In North Carolina, you actually have two great big populations of folks to appeal to. I think that's what they're going after.
COLLINS: Jamal Simmons. Alyssa Farah Griffin. Jane Kleeb. Great to have you on set with us.
KLEEB: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you so much for being here.
KLEEB: Yes, good to be here.
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to take a first look at the chilling handwritten letter that was released today. You can see the letter itself, from the man suspected of trying to assassinate former President Trump.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Federal prosecutors in court, today, revealed this handwritten letter that you are looking at here, addressed to the world, making clear that the man, who sat in the trees with a rifle, at Donald Trump's golf course, was going to try to kill him.
Because of Ryan Routh's own words, the Feds plan to charge him with attempted assassination.
But tonight, in a lengthy post, railing against the FBI and the Justice Department, Trump claims that they are downplaying the investigation, and in all-caps, said to "LET FLORIDA HANDLE THE CASE," arguing that state charges would be much more serious than the ones the FBI has announced.
Joining me, tonight, is the state attorney for Palm Beach County, Dave Aronberg.
[21:35:00]
Dave, we have been hearing this from the Florida attorney general, Ashley Moody. And she sent a letter to the Director of the FBI, today, Chris Wray, saying that they are -- have involved in these politically-motivated prosecutions of Donald Trump, and demanding they share evidence and cooperate with Florida's separate investigation into this.
What's your thoughts on the argument that Florida is better-positioned to investigate this than the federal government is?
DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: Kaitlan, the only part of the argument that I would agree with is that when it comes to the crime of attempted murder, that's generally a state crime. And it's not unusual, for state prosecutors, to assist with a federal investigation.
But what's happening here is that the state prosecutors are designed to compete with the federal investigation, because of politics, a turf war based on politics. And that only causes problems.
Fortunately, the statewide prosecutor, the one at the state level, who's in charge of the investigation, is a good guy who's not political, Nick Cox. And I know he'll do the right thing.
And when the Feds are done with their investigation, they can turn the evidence over to the state.
But you're dealing with a state investigation that's premised on the belief that the Feds are corrupt and compromised. And so, when the state asks for evidence and demands it, what do you think the Feds are going to do? You think they're going to willingly give it over, before their investigation is done? Not a chance. And you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
COLLINS: Yes. And is there anything that you've seen so far? I mean, I was reading to what prosecutors were saying, during that three-hour court hearing, today. It seems like a pretty detailed investigation. They were laying out a roadmap of where they're going, where the fingerprints were, at the scene of this attempted assassination. I mean, have you seen anything that indicates to you that the federal government is downplaying this investigation?
ARONBERG: They're not. And I do think that Governor DeSantis, and the Attorney General, are jumping the gun, when they say that this is small ball.
The Feds filed these gun charges, because they were the easiest charges against Routh, and that could keep him behind bars while they continue to collect evidence, to file more serious charges.
Remember, there hasn't even been an indictment yet. And so, this, at the beginning, not the end. And I do think the federal government, as they collect more evidence, will go ahead with an indictment that includes a more serious charge, perhaps, of the attempted assassination, of a major presidential candidate, and the attempted assassination of a former President, which can get you life in prison.
So, I do think it's premature to say, Look, the Feds aren't charging seriously enough. When, if the state had this case?
COLLINS: Yes.
ARONBERG: They would be doing the same thing. You have to base them on the evidence and the law.
COLLINS: Dave Aronberg, thank you for that.
And I also want to get some perspective tonight, because we've got CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, here.
It's just a technical question.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes.
COLLINS: Ryan Routh, he's in federal custody. Would they even be able to turn him over to state custody, until after this trial would be done?
HONIG: So, he can be prosecuted both federally and in the state at the same time.
COLLINS: OK.
HONIG: But you're right. The Feds would absolutely keep custody of him.
And this is the most important point I want to make here. If Donald Trump wants this case prosecuted, to the maximum extent of the law? He wants the Feds to do this.
And I have -- I was both federal and state over my career. Generally speaking, federal prosecutors have a heavier hammer than state prosecutors. They have better sentencing. There's no parole. They have better bail laws. So, he should want the Feds to do this. COLLINS: OK. But I have to ask you. Because they did release this letter today.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: It's from Ryan Routh that he had written before what happened -- in Palm Beach, happened. But he said in this letter, essentially that he was -- he was out to assassinate Donald Trump. He said he had failed in it.
Former Attorney General, Bill Barr, is bashing them for releasing this. He said today that he was dumbfounded by the decision to do so. He said it serves no purpose, quote, other than to risk inciting further violence. By that, he was referencing how Ryan Routh said in here--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --about a $150,000 reward for whoever was successful here.
I mean, does Bill Barr have a point?
HONIG: He does. I don't often agree with Bill Barr. But I agree with him here.
What the Feds could have done in their brief, and I read it, it's a powerful brief, is just say we recovered a letter from him, from his possessions, where he says this was an attempted assassination. That's it.
Instead, they published the whole letter, which to somebody, who's unbalanced or dangerous, could see that as some sort of call to arms. So, I disagree with that tactic by the Feds. I think it's counterproductive.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, thank you.
HONIG: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
Up next. Of course, we are covering a story here that everyone is paying attention to. The Pentagon is about to send more U.S. forces to the Middle East, as we are seeing tensions in that region reach an all-time high.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tomorrow, we're going to hear President Biden deliver his last major speech to world leaders, at the United Nations General Assembly, here in New York, just as the Pentagon says that it is sending a small number of troops, to bolster forces, already in the Middle East, as violence is escalating in the region there, as we can so clearly see, is on edge. Look at this, today, Israel launched its deadliest day of strikes, in Lebanon, since its 2006 war. The IDF saying that 1,600 Hezbollah targets and assets were hit in that attack, and also that it's war with the -- is with the Iran-backed militant group, not the Lebanese people.
Lebanese officials say that there are at least 492 people, who were killed in today's attacks.
Now, this offensive is coming just days after thousands of Hezbollah- owned pagers and walkie-talkies exploded in civilian areas, last week.
I want to get perspective now from Evelyn Farkas, who is the former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, Ukraine and Eurasia.
It's great to have you here.
Because essentially, it seems to be the Israel's hope is if they scale up their attacks enough, on Hezbollah, it's going to force this group, that is backed by Iran, to ultimately pull back.
Do you think that strategy is working?
[21:45:00]
EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASST. DEFENSE SECRETARY FOR RUSSIA, UKRAINE & EURASIA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MCCAIN INSTITUTE: Yes, I mean, Kaitlan, it's clearly not working.
Right now, Hezbollah has said they are not going to pull back. They are continuing to assert that everything hinges on Gaza, that if Israel doesn't make a deal, to have a ceasefire, to release the hostages, to release, of course, Palestinian prisoners, in exchange, that Hezbollah will continue fighting, in solidarity with their Hamas terrorist brethren.
So, they don't appear to be backing down, even though, of course, they must be devastated by these attacks, not just on the civilians, but of course, on their command, on their leadership, and then on the rank- and-file with the pagers.
COLLINS: So, I think a lot of people are sitting at home, and saying, I have watched this region be on edge since the October 7th attack, last year. We're almost at the one-year anniversary.
What do you -- what is the conversation happening, inside the Pentagon, inside the Sit Room, that is warranting the U.S. sending more U.S. troops to the region?
FARKAS: Yes, I mean, Kaitlan, all along, the Administration has been determined to prevent the war that was basically started by Hamas, and let's be clear, Iran, because Iran is the proxy -- you know, Iran is supporting these proxy militaries, these proxy terrorists.
The war was started in -- with that October invasion, of Israel from Gaza. However, there was always this low-level skirmishing going on, between Israel and Hezbollah in the north coming out of Lebanon.
The Administration, though, was very clear it did not want another full-fledged war. We haven't had a war between Israel and Lebanon, or at least Hezbollah in Lebanon, since 2006. And that it was really important for the Administration to prevent that from happening because, of course, the loss of life. But also, there's no end game. I mean, to what end, and how do you bring it to a conclusion?
And it seems that the Israeli government, again, is going down a road of kind of full-out war, or at least it appears to be moving in that direction, where it's unclear how they will bring this to a conclusion.
COLLINS: Well, given that, and given right now, there's no credible, real prospect for a hostage release or a ceasefire deal. Do you think this is entering a different phase of this war?
FARKAS: It feels that way, Kaitlan. But it remains to be seen.
I think a lot depends on, frankly, what Iran wants. Hezbollah has shown some restraint. And it may be that they are, first of all, of course, they kind of control Lebanon, which is a state, so they have a greater sense of responsibility, I guess, or somehow they're -- they have behaved in the past with some more restraint.
Iran is, you know, we have been getting mixed messages from Iran, because, on the one hand, you have a president who is, of course, interested in getting the sanctions removed. And he said that publicly.
The President, of course, is not the power in Iran. The power is really held by the religious leadership, and then, of course, the IRGC, the Quds Force, these military commanders. So the -- but the military commanders also understand there's a balance to be maintained, because the Iranian people don't want these continued sanctions.
So, the question really is, how long will Iran support Hezbollah in a fight with Israel, and whether the Israelis can move back. Because they really want to move their citizens back to the border, which, frankly, I think they made a bad decision letting their civilians leave when they did. But that's another issue.
COLLINS: We will be talking about it all, as we are watching it very closely.
FARKAS: Yes.
COLLINS: Also, President Biden's speech here, tomorrow, to see what he says about this.
Evelyn Farkas, great to have you, joining us, tonight. Thank you.
FARKAS: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And up next. We have a story for you about a murder that galvanized the Civil Rights movement. And now, nearly 70 years later, we're still learning many details, some that, frankly, I didn't know, about the brutal killing of the 14-year-old Emmett Till. We're going to talk about that with a best-selling author, right after this.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It was 69 years ago, today, that an all-White and an all-male jury, in Sumner, Mississippi, acquitted two White men, in the brutal lynching of a Black 14-year-old by the name of Emmett Till. Months later, the same two men admitted to the crime in a magazine interview that they were paid for.
It's a story that many of us know very well, or at least thought we did.
My next guest grew up just 23 miles from where Emmett Till was murdered. But the history book that he read in high school never even mentioned Till's name. And it wasn't until he left the state for college that he learned the (inaudible) Rights movement in America.
My source tonight is Wright Thompson, the best-selling author of the new book "The Barn: The Secret History of a Murder in Mississippi."
You spent four years, researching this book, and talk about how a lot of these details about his murder that aren't well-known, and as to the title of the book alludes to, were hidden in plain sight, kind of.
WRIGHT THOMPSON, AUTHOR, "THE BARN: THE SECRET HISTORY OF A MURDER IN MISSISSIPPI," SENIOR WRITER, ESPN: Well, I mean, the thing that totally shocked me, when I got into it, was how much of it had been erased. And then, when you start digging into it, intentionally erased.
[21:55:00]
I mean, one of the things that I came away believing, about our country, frankly, was that, like the real enemy of the American experience is erasure. And so, what I found was people who, over the course of 70 years, had been trying to erase this crime, and then a group of people now who are trying to fight erasure with memory.
COLLINS: Well, and it's interesting. I mean, and I'm also (inaudible) and it's this idea of growing up and not knowing what happened, where you're from, the atrocities that were committed there.
And how that erasure, as you write and put it, that it doesn't really help, because when you hide those hateful things from you -- and this is what you wrote, you said, You never learn the lesson that hate grows stronger and more resistant, when it's pushed underground.
THOMPSON: Well, it's like, the very basic thing, I think that should be the -- that the American tribe is built on, is honesty. And like, Let's talk about who we are. Let's talk about how we got here. I mean, I was sitting back in the green room, watching the ticker of all the crazy news. And like, I watch -- I watch news all the time. And my main question is, like, how did we get here?
And so, I think, in a very real way, the answer to that question runs through the barn, where Emmett Till was killed. I mean, it's like a vessel. I don't know if that makes sense. It's like a vessel for the American past, but also for the American present.
I mean, I feel like -- look, I consume network and cable news. And it feels like every minute of every show, no matter what the topic, is actually really about the same thing, which is like an urgent search for the soul of America.
And I certainly found that in this story. Who are we? How did we get here? And so, I mean, I guess, in that way, I never really thought about it. But the barn is also -- the barn where Emmett was killed is also a vessel for our future. And I just feel like there are a lot of lessons about our country that feel super-urgent and present tense, right now, in the story.
COLLINS: What do you mean, it's a vessel for our future? Explain that to me.
THOMPSON: So, like, if you look the land -- the history of the land around the barn, which is a big part of what the book is about.
COLLINS: Because that's where he was tortured.
THOMPSON: And he was tortured and killed.
All of the things that happened around there, and you realize how these people came into intersection, in this place and in this time.
And when you start finding out, when you start reading the book, I think part of you might think, Well what does any of this have to do with the killing of Emmett Till? And I think by the time you get to the end of it, you don't really know why this isn't how you're taught at, in school.
COLLINS: And by that, you mean because there was a governor's race happening in Mississippi that had ended just before Emmett Till came down from Chicago.
THOMPSON: So, one of the things I certainly didn't realize is that -- I mean, this was a -- the rhetoric in the 1955 Mississippi governor's race would be very familiar to anybody, who was watching your show, tonight. I mean, the speeches they were giving on the stump wouldn't be that different than the speech we were watching former President Trump give, tonight.
And it was really supercharged rhetoric, and the people got the message. And so, the election was on a Tuesday. And Emmett and his cousins and his friends went to the store, on a Wednesday.
And so, like one of the many untold things about this story is that it is so closely related to political rhetoric, and to metaphorical violent rhetoric. And like, I didn't -- I certainly wasn't taught any of that in Mississippi. I don't know if you were, in Alabama.
COLLINS: And the fearmongering that you hear in the speeches of politicians is what leads to violence that we see in this race.
THOMPSON: And it's just like, you end up with, like, small people, who will do anything for a vote, and don't realize that there are angry, desperate people, listening to them. And you just see it happening over and over and over.
COLLINS: Well, it's powerful and really painful to read this book. And I just wonder, as someone from the South, who didn't learn about this growing up, how that makes you feel, as you were looking through this and thinking, What if I had known this, when I was 14-years-old?
THOMPSON: My mom is very politically active on Facebook. And she lives alone and, like, sometimes I worry about her.
COLLINS: As all moms are.
THOMPSON: Yes.
And so, one time I asked her, I was like, what -- you know, just what you -- So, what? You win an argument on the internet. Big deal.
And what she said to me was, I grew up in Mississippi in the 50s and 60s, and didn't really understand what was going on. And when I learned, I promised myself that if I ever had the chance again, I wouldn't be silent.
And so, yes, I'm a sports writer, usually. I mean, I came across this in the pandemic, and got completely obsessed with the fact that I grew up 20 minutes from here, and never knew this barn existed.
And it was part of that. It was trying to live up to the example of my mother, frankly, which is, when you know something, it is incumbent -- it's incumbent upon you, as a citizen of the Mississippi Delta, and of Mississippi, of the south of America, to say something and not be silent.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Wright Thompson, you are certainly not being silent. It's a beautiful read, and I hope everyone reads it.
THOMPSON: Thank you so -- thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you for joining us, tonight.
THOMPSON: I really appreciate it.
COLLINS: The book is "The Barn" by Wright Thompson.
Thank you all so much for joining us, here tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
