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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Vance: Wouldn't Be Surprised If We Win "Normal Gay Guy Vote"; Pritzker: Trump Shaping His Policies For Billionaires; Viktor Orban: Just Spoke To Trump, "Fingers Crossed" He Wins. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 31, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --you can hear more of the conversation. It's available, right now, wherever you get your podcasts.
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That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
With fewer than 100 hours until Election Day, yes, we are counting, Harris and Trump are both pursuing the Latino vote tonight. Harris alongside JLo in Las Vegas, as Donald Trump is saying the quiet part out loud, in New Mexico.
Also, J.D. Vance is making a closing argument of his own tonight, saying that there are some women who, in his words, "Celebrate" abortions, and why he thinks they'll win the, quote, "Normal gay guy vote."
And about last night, Donald Trump's Transition Co-chair was here, embracing COVID conspiracies that are spread by RFK Jr., and also on vaccines. My source tonight is one of the world's foremost experts on vaccines, and I have a feeling he doesn't agree.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
With just days left, in this race. Tonight, both campaigns are descending on the same state at about the same time, battleground Nevada, which has a large Latino population, and could play a role in deciding what happens next Tuesday night.
Harris just wrapped her rally in Reno. She's now heading over to Vegas, where she's going to be rallying with JLo on stage. And Donald Trump just finished his event in Henderson, Nevada a few moments ago as well.
Every stop matters right now, at this close to the end of the race. And that's what raised questions about why Donald Trump was spending a few hours, in New Mexico, earlier today. It's a state he's lost twice before, and right now is seen as safe Democratic terrain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm only here for one reason.
They all said, Don't come.
I said, Why?
You can't win New Mexico.
I said, Look, your votes are rigged. We can win New Mexico.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: So, I'm here for one simple reason. I like you very much, and it's good for my credentials with the Hispanic or Latino community.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: You know, in the East Coast, they like being called Hispanics. You know this? On the West Coast, they like being called Latinos.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: All right, we'll take that one at a time. I should note, the votes are not rigged, not in New Mexico, or anywhere else, in any other state.
But Trump there was appearing to avoid the real reason, saying out loud, he's hoping to boost his cred with Latino voters. At one point, as you heard there, he was building up to poll the crowd, on whether or not they preferred being called Latino or Hispanic.
All of that that you saw happening in New Mexico is what led Vice President Harris to offer this response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: My opponent is also making his closing argument to America.
(BOOING)
HARRIS: And you've probably seen a bit of it. It is an argument that is full of hate and division. He insults Latinos, scapegoats immigrants. And it's not just what he says. It's what he will do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my political sources are here with me tonight, at the table.
Former New York City Mayor, Bill de Blasio.
Former Obama campaign adviser, Ameshia Cross.
And former senior adviser to Senator Mitch McConnell, Scott Jennings.
Scott, as the Republican at the table, would you have taken your candidate to blue New Mexico with less than 100 hours before Tuesday night?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL: Anyone here know the last Republican to win New Mexico? And does anyone know who ran the campaign there? George W. Bush? And this guy, 2004. So, I know a little bit about campaigning in the Land of Enchantment.
COLLINS: OK. And do you think Donald Trump is going to win New Mexico, on Tuesday night?
JENNINGS: I don't know -- I think -- I think--
COLLINS: If you look the numbers?
JENNINGS: I think of the blue states that are within the realm of the possible, Virginia, New Mexico seem the most likely. But it's, that doesn't mean it will happen. It just means, if everything were to break right. They got something going out there. There's also a Senate race going on out there.
I'll tell you one other thing. He's been all over all these swing states. He's made more appearances than Harris. I'm not sure there's another place in Pennsylvania, he could have a rally. But I know this. In both Virginia and New Mexico, he's going to get huge, boisterous crowds. And he was utterly honest about what he's trying to do. Maximize vote among Hispanic voters all over this country.
COLLINS: But you don't think that on Tuesday night, or by Thursday, next week, he's down by 10,000 votes in Michigan or Pennsylvania, they're going to think, Maybe we should have done one more rally out in Erie?
JENNINGS: Well, I don't -- I don't think one more rally is going to mean anything, frankly, to either of them. I mean, Harris was in Texas, just the other day. They're not going to win Texas, I don't think.
[21:05:00]
It's a national campaign. These are national messages. And he's speaking directly to a voter group. Yes, in New Mexico. But there's Hispanic voters everywhere that are looking at the Republican Party for the first time. And he was talking directly to them, and they're going to see all the news coverage of it.
COLLINS: But in it addition to that, the comments that really stood out more to me was what he said there about claiming that he won New Mexico twice.
He has lost New Mexico twice. He lost it by one margin in 2016. That margin grew, when he went against President Biden in 2020.
So just hearing that? I know it has become normalized to a degree. But I mean, he is saying he won an election that he didn't win, five days before an election that there are real concerns whether or not he'll claim victory, when we don't know the results yet.
AMESHIA CROSS, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN ADVISER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I'm not surprised, because he still claims to have won 2020.
I think that there are some things that we have to take into consideration. One, somebody who is a methodical, inconsistent liar probably is not going to change from being a methodical, inconsistent liar.
But on top of that, he has gone out of his way to insult the Latino population. He has gone out of his way to push policies that not only hurt the progress of the community, but also are designed to create further frictions between White Americans and Latino Americans. And we've seen that time and time again. He utilizes rhetoric on the campaign trail that is designed to create a race war.
And I think that for Latinos, who are living in New Mexico, for Latinos who are living in Puerto Rico, and Puerto Ricans who are living on the mainland, at the end of the day, they're seeing this, and they're questioning not only who Donald Trump is, but also who the Republican Party is.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, Mr. Mayor, when you see that and look at those numbers. The Trump campaign looks back at 2020 and how he actually did improve in certain areas, south Florida, with Hispanic voters. I mean, it wasn't something we talked about because he was disputing the results of that election.
But is that something, to Scott's point, about building up the Hispanic vote, and what that actually looks like, come Tuesday?
BILL DE BLASIO, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Look, I think we have to be really clear that this is not a monolith community in any way, shape or form. Even in my city, in New York City, you have to differentiate the realities, the politics, the culture, between Dominican community, Puerto Rican community, Ecuadorian, Colombian, you name it.
The insult of the Puerto Rican community the other night, which Donald Trump had an opportunity to address and pointedly decided not to? That's going to have real ramification in places like Pennsylvania. This is a very proud community that's been through hell, in their home island, with Hurricane Maria, and so many other challenges. And for him to allow one of the people, on his stage, to insult Puerto Rico and then just let it slide? That hits home.
So, I think when you look at the Latino community, writ large, Democrats do need to come to grips with the fact that we've got to improve our outreach, our message. There's things we got to do better.
But if you look at the pieces of the community one by one, this week marks a huge mistake for Donald Trump, in a community within the Latino world that he desperately needs.
COLLINS: Yes, the question is--
JENNINGS: Would you -- would you say that as far as surrogates go this week, it was a bigger problem for a comedian that most people have never heard of?
Or was it a bigger problem for Joe Biden, as a surrogate, to call half the country, garbage?
Or even a bigger problem, today, for Mark Cuban, to insult women voters who are thinking of voting Republican?
Of those three surrogate issues, which would you say?
COLLINS: But can I say?
JENNINGS: Biden and Cuban? Or this guy? I can't even remember his name.
COLLINS: The one difference in that is the reaction to it. I see your point, Scott. And we obviously talked about Biden's remark here. We're going to talk about Mark Cuban's comment in a moment.
But Biden came out immediately to clarify that.
Mark Cuban came out, today, to talk about his.
I hasn't -- Donald Trump just claimed--
JENNINGS: You can't--
COLLINS: --he didn't know who the comedian was, in his rally.
JENNINGS: I'm sure he doesn't, A. And B, the camp--
COLLINS: But he's still in his rally, and responsibility for that.
JENNINGS: --the campaign had a statement out before--
CROSS: The camping isn't the candidate.
JENNINGS: --before Donald Trump ever -- before Donald Trump ever even took the stage. They dealt with it immediately.
COLLINS: No, that statement came out after the rally was over.
JENNINGS: Ah-- COLLINS: I know, because I was at Madison Square Garden for eight hours, on Sunday.
CROSS: Again, the campaign is not the candidate. The candidate could have--
JENNINGS: Oh, is it not?
CROSS: --waited and spoken against this.
JENNINGS: Then you agree--
CROSS: And he has not.
JENNINGS: Then you must agree that it's been kind of weird, for the Kamala Harris' campaign, through anonymous statements from staffers to change all of her positions on every issue, then?
DE BLASIO: Wait, Scott, just come back to this.
CROSS: She's not going to change her positions (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
DE BLASIO: You had a guy on the stage--
JENNINGS: Yes, she did.
DE BLASIO: --at Madison Square Garden, the most prominent arena in the country, insult the Puerto Rican people.
JENNINGS: Joe Biden insulted half the country.
DE BLASIO: Excuse me. But that's a--
JENNINGS: Mark Cuban insulted half--
DE BLASIO: --that's a great indirection.
JENNINGS: --the other half of the country.
DE BLASIO: I want to ask you this. He insulted--
JENNINGS: Are there more Puerto Ricans? Or more women?
DE BLASIO: He insulted the Puerto Rican people.
CROSS: Joe Biden is also not running.
DE BLASIO: And Trump--
JENNINGS: And neither is this comedian.
DE BLASIO: Trump took a pass on it.
JENNINGS: I'm sorry, you are-- DE BLASIO: Now, you're a -- you're a former campaign manager.
JENNINGS: I'm sorry, you--
DE BLASIO: You would never let that happen, would you? Would you?
JENNINGS: Well, look, number one, this pre-program was not helpful. I have said that numerous times.
Number two, the fact that you all want to turn this campaign into something about an idiot comedian, and want to ignore the clear bumbling stupidity of the President, and Mark Cuban, to me, speaks volumes--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Well, on that point -- on that point--
CROSS: No, we're asking why Donald Trump did not dissuade these comments.
COLLINS: Let's--
CROSS: Why he didn't step aside from the -- why he didn't condemn them himself.
COLLINS: But let's--
CROSS: So, it was somebody he platformed.
COLLINS: --talk about what the candidates themselves are saying then. Because I think that's a fair point. Let's listen to what they themselves are saying.
J.D. Vance did Joe Rogan's podcast today. It was about three hours long, I believe. We're not going to play all three hours of it.
But listen to these highlights from it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH), 2024 VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The one way that those people can participate in the DEI bureaucracy in this country is to be trans. And is there a dynamic that's going on where, if you become trans, that is the way to reject your White privilege.
[21:10:00]
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if me and Trump won just the normal gay guy vote.
JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE" PODCAST: I'm sure.
VANCE: Because, again, they just wanted to be left the hell alone.
To be clear, this is not true of the gross majority of our pro-choice citizens. But you do sometimes see people like they'll go on TikTok, and they'll celebrate having an abortion.
My argument is we need to try to gain those women's trust back. Because clearly, the Republican Party, on this issue, has lost a lot of trust. But none of them were like baking birthday cakes and posting about it afterwards.
It becomes trying to celebrate something that at, at the very best, if you grant, I think every argument of the pro-choice side, it is a neutral thing, not something to be celebrated.
ROGAN: I think there's very few people that are celebrating though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, Joe Rogan makes a strong point. I don't know anyone who has ever celebrated an abortion, or what.
When it comes to closing messages, when you have a deficit with women voters, is that a smart campaign move? Are they just going all in on the mail vote?
JENNINGS: Well, yes.
COLLINS: By these latest moves?
JENNINGS: I mean, that's why he's on the Joe Rogan podcast. I mean.
COLLINS: Yes, but come on. You hear -- what you hear -- or heard that.
JENNINGS: Yes, look, I haven't listened to the whole thing. I actually, I'm hearing this for the first time. I don't know what they talked about for three hours. Three hours is a long time to have a conversation.
COLLINS: Yes, but you just heard his quote there, Scott.
JENNINGS: Yes, I know. I mean, they were having a meandering conversation about things that -- truthfully, I don't know. It is a podcast that men and young men listen to.
I know that the campaign's theory of the case is to turn out this cohort of young male voters, who are politically disconnected. That's why Trump did it. That's why Vance did it. And Harris did not. She declined to do it. Maybe they've given up on the men.
DE BLASIO: But women are doing the voting. And so, I appreciate, you were honest there about you weren't embracing what he said. Women are doing the voting. And right there, to suggest that there are women around this country, celebrating their abortion? That's an unbelievably insensitive statement.
And J.D. Vance has put together a really amazing combination of insensitive statements, over the course last few months. A lot of women are going to hear that, and say, I just can't deal with these guys. They're too extreme, and they don't represent me. CROSS: And I think they've already given up on the female vote. And J.D. Vance is doubling down on that. It's sad. I mean, he's also doubling down on hatred of the LGBT community, and creating splinters between those who are gay and those who are trans. We heard that in that clip as well.
At the end of the day, we know that the Republicans have been running ad after ad, trying to amplify fear tactics around trans youth, especially, saying that, You send your child to school as a boy and they'll come back as a girl.
These ads are running across multiple states. It has absolutely nothing to do with the policies that matter to the American people. If Republicans say that top thing is the economy, what the hell does this have to do with the economy?
And they are not worried about actually making lives harder for LGBT students and youth who are already at higher rates for suicide, higher risk for suicide, and don't have the mental health supports available in their schools, to help them to be able to sort through these things.
So being someone, who is perpetuating that type of aggression, and that rhetoric? It does not help anything.
JENNINGS: I agree that the ads on trans issues have been really impactful in the campaign. Charlamagne's ad that the campaign is running, I see it all the time, and I hear people talking about it all the time. And I concur with you. I think these issues are pretty impactful in the campaign. We'll see how it turns out.
COLLINS: You think impactful, obviously, in a different way.
Everyone, thank you for that.
Up next. We are going to talk about Mark Cuban. The Trump campaign is criticizing him today. You just saw him here, last week. Over the comments he made about women who are pro-Trump. We'll play those for you in a moment.
Another top Harris ally is my source. Illinois governor, JB Pritzker.
Plus, there is an autocrat, who is openly saying he would like for Donald Trump to come out on top, on Tuesday.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: One of Harris' top surrogates is in cleanup mode tonight. It is not President Biden, this time.
Mark Cuban is clarifying something that he said earlier today on "The View." Here's what it was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARK CUBAN, AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN: Donald Trump, you never see him around strong, intelligent women. Ever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CUBAN: It's just that simple. They're intimidating to him. He doesn't like to be challenged by them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The Trump campaign quickly jumped on those comments, including we heard from Campaign Co-manager, Susie Wiles, and also the Republican National Committee Co-chair and his daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, responding to that, saying they are strong independent women around him.
Cuban responded, and wrote this, and said, "I stand by my opinion that he does not like being challenged publicly." But Cuban, also in that statement, said he's happy to clarify that he knows "Many strong, intelligent women" who are voting for Trump, "I know he has worked with strong intelligent women."
My next source is a surrogate for the Harris-Walz campaign. Illinois governor, JB Pritzker.
Governor, it's great to have you here.
When you see what happened today with that exchange? We are in the final critical days of a campaign that really has been very laser- focused, when you look at the candidate herself.
I just think between this, between the President Biden's garbage comment that had been in the news cycle for the last few days, do you think the Harris surrogates are having a bit of a problem staying on message?
GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): Look, I think you're in the final silly days, just before the election, and every little thing that people say can be misinterpreted, or people can just misspeak.
I think the cleanup that Mark Cuban offered is right. There are plenty of smart women, who will end up voting for Donald Trump.
[21:20:00]
But I think the point is also that Donald Trump doesn't like to be challenged by smart women. He doesn't like to be challenged by anybody, to be honest. And I think that's one of the problems with him, potentially getting elected president again. He doesn't really listen to anybody, and he certainly doesn't have a lot of leading women, and experts, around him, as he's making decisions. We saw that for four years, from 2017 to 2021.
So, I worry about the country, and not having those smart, intelligent women around him, and frankly, smart, intelligent experts, men and women, because it's just, it's not his bailiwick. It's not what he likes. He thinks he knows everything. He thinks he's the smartest person in the world. And I think we would all agree, he is not.
COLLINS: Well, and I should note, we're certainly seeing this happen with the Trump campaign as well. I mean, from the Madison Square Garden rally, to the Transition chief, last night, on this show, questioning vaccines or linking them to autism, which they are not.
But on what Mark Cuban was arguing. They were talking about Nikki Haley. And when you talk about smart, strong women being out there, she has not been on the campaign trail with Trump since the convention. She hasn't spoken to him in months, she said, the other day.
Why do you think at a moment when Donald Trump is really trailing Harris with women voters, that he hasn't asked someone like her to join him out there?
PRITZKER: Well, let's start with why wouldn't Nikki Haley be out there with him? She can choose to go out and support him and help him. She's not chosen to do that. And that's because she knows that you have no future if you support Donald Trump, whether he wins or loses.
If he wins, he ends up dismissing people, right and left. He doesn't want anything or anyone powerful near him. And if he loses, you've been out there supporting a guy who basically has been promoting hate. He's been promoting things that I think middle-class Americans abhor.
And if you want a future, you don't want to have Donald Trump as part of your past.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, she said she's voting for him, and that she's on standby. But, yes, we haven't seen that call to action yet.
When it comes though, to the gender gap that we've seen, as we've all been staring polling numbers, polling numbers until our eyes go crossed, over the last few days, waiting for Tuesday.
Do you think that after Tuesday, and we're looking back at this, that women could decide this election?
PRITZKER: Oh, I very much think that women are going to play an important role here. There's a huge gender gap, and I think it favors, in general, Democrats. That is to say, to the extent there's a gap, the gap is much bigger in favor of Democrats as between where men and women will vote.
So, I'm actually very confident that women are the ones, who ultimately are going to help us win this election. Meanwhile, there are an awful lot of men, who are out there working very hard, on the ground, and the enthusiasm level is very high.
And frankly, it's because Kamala Harris stands for what middle-class Americans really need. Providing a $6,000 tax credit for families, $25,000 to go buy a home, $50,000 if you have a small business. She's somebody, who is going to fight for people's freedoms, whether we're talking about reproductive rights or voting rights or civil rights. She's the one. And the contrast is very clear. Donald Trump wants to provide massive tax cuts for his wealthy friends, and the people who are writing him enormous checks. And he seems to change his views on things. The minute he meets up with a wealthy person that has a slightly different view than he does, he will literally change his views, to adopt theirs, so he can win over their money.
COLLINS: I'm glad you brought that up. Because when you came out, at the convention, held in your home state, you brought up your wealth, joking about it, saying, at one point, talking about voters when they trust Trump more on the economy, you said, Take it from an actual billionaire, I believe was your line.
But actually, given that, I wonder how you do feel about the outsized role that we are seeing people, who are billionaires, who are in that tax bracket, what kind of role they're playing in the 2024 race?
PRITZKER: Well, let's talk about which of these candidates is shaping their policies for billionaires. Because it isn't Kamala Harris. It's Donald Trump. He is the one who wants to shape these things around the wealthiest people, give them the big tax breaks.
Kamala Harris has support from people, who are wealthy. But her policies are really built around the working-class and middle-class families across the United States. And that's something that should give people confidence. That, lots of people want to support candidates of all wealth levels. But what you want to know about a candidate is, are they doing what they believe? Is it good for the average, everyday working people of the United States? That is the position that Donald -- that Kamala Harris has.
[21:25:00]
And Donald Trump is the one who has, you know, he's deemed himself one of the wealthiest, and he loves hanging around with wealthy people. Look at the cabinet that he appointed, when he was president, just a few years ago. This is a guy who just thinks that wealthy people should be in charge of everything. That's not what Kamala Harris stands for.
COLLINS: As Governor of Illinois, are you prepared to work with Donald Trump if he does win the election, next week?
PRITZKER: Well, I had to do it back in 2019, and 2020, when he was President, and I became Governor of Illinois. So of course, I'll work with the President of the United States, whoever it is, if it happens to be Donald Trump.
But I must say that it would be much better, for the people of Illinois, and frankly, for the people of America, if Kamala Harris became President, and Tim Walz, Vice President.
COLLINS: We'll see what happens. Hopefully, we'll know by this time next week.
Governor JB Pritzker, thank you for your time tonight. PRITZKER: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: In these critical final days of the race, Donald Trump was out in a blue state, earlier, where he pushed election lies. We're going to speak to a top Trump ally, next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: With five days to go, Donald Trump made a detour from key battleground states today. He went to a rally in New Mexico. It's not exactly New York or California. But it is not a state, right now, based on the polling that we've seen, that he is expected to win.
Trump insisted that victory is possible there, and also falsely claimed that he had won there before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We almost won it twice. And let me tell you, I believe we won it twice, OK? If you want to know the truth.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: And if you can watch your vote counter, if we could bring God down from heaven, he could be the vote counter, we would win this.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: We'd win California. We'd win a lot of states.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm not sure God wants to be brought into this.
But I should note, California has not gone red, at the presidential level, since 1988. Donald Trump lost the state in 2020 by more than 5 million votes.
He's also never won New Mexico, despite claiming that it was rigged. You can see the numbers here. Biden defeated Trump there in 2020 by more than 10 points. Hillary Clinton won the state in 2016 by more than eight points.
My source tonight is North Dakota governor, Doug Burgum, also a surrogate for the Trump campaign.
Governor, obviously, neither of those victories by Democrats had anything to do with fraud. So why is Donald Trump lying about past elections, when we're five days out from the next one?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM (R-ND): Well, I think the reason he's in New Mexico is because New Mexico is an energy state. And under President Trump's policies on energy, the economy. It's also a big border state, securing the border. Those are all things that I know matter to voters around the country.
And while I haven't campaigned for him in New Mexico. I know that in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, which are the states that are probably going to decide this election, those messages are resoundingly the top on the minds of voters there. Number one is the economy. Number two is the -- is the border, because border means safe cities.
COLLINS: Yes, well, no one's saying he can't go there. He's just going there and lying about what happened in the elections. He knows he didn't win New Mexico.
But Governor, I was thinking back today to 2020, on the Election Night, then. Donald Trump came out before all the votes had been counted and claimed that he won that election.
If you're around him, on Tuesday, will you encourage him to wait until all the results are in, and the ballots have been counted?
BURGUM: Well, I think, on Tuesday night, what I'm optimistic for this country, is that we're going to -- we're going to know the victory on Tuesday night, and not a day later, two days later, weeks later. It's not going to change overnight.
Because I think the way we're -- the way I see it lining up, and what I feel on the ground, talking to voters around the states that I've been in, is that there's a chance that if there's one or two states that don't have their count done, because they can't figure out how to get it done on Election Day, there's still going to be Electoral College victory for President Trump, on Tuesday night.
So, you're asking a hypothetical. I don't think that hypothetical is going to come true. I think we're going to know the winner on Tuesday night.
COLLINS: Well, it's not a hypothetical. It happened in 2020. And Rudy Giuliani told Donald Trump to go out there and declare victory.
Steve Bannon, after getting out of prison, the other day, said that Trump's only mistake was that he should have done it at 11:00 p.m., that night, instead of 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.
I just think, if you are someone he listens to, he consults you? Would you encourage him to wait until we do have an answer of what the election results are looking at like before he comes out and declares anything?
BURGUM: Well, I think, again, you're going ahead all the way to Tuesday night. I think we've got a lot of campaigning to do. As you know, even though record--
COLLINS: It's five days away.
BURGUM: --record voting by Republicans. That's very positive to see that the early voting is record highs for Republicans.
But you and I both know, Kaitlan, that we could have, in some of these states, as much as 60 percent of the voting is still going to happen on Tuesday. And I think we got to focus on the closing -- the closing arguments. And right now, I think the closing arguments that President Trump is delivering are the ones that are going to help him win, next Tuesday.
[21:35:00]
Because he's at these -- at these events that he's at, if he's talking for an hour and a half, 98 percent of the time, he's talking, he's talking about what he's going to do for the American people, in terms of getting the economy going, unleashing American energy, securing the border, supporting our allies, supporting Israel. I mean, all of these things that he -- ending wars. I mean, all of these things that he talks about are stuff that are the most important things in the minds of voters.
COLLINS: Yes, but--
BURGUM: And so.
COLLINS: But on Tuesday night, I mean, we have a pretty good idea. We don't know for sure that we won't know on Tuesday night. We look at Pennsylvania, and how long they take to count provisional ballots. There's a lot of mail-in ballots, obviously. It's different rules in different states. It doesn't mean that anything bad is happening in those states just because they are being counted properly.
But Governor, you've run races before. Have you ever come out and prematurely declared victory?
BURGUM: Well, no, I haven't had to do that. But it goes -- because we've been able to win by a wide enough margins, we haven't.
And I think, for America, we have to continue to be aspirational on this. I mean, India is a democracy. They had 600 million people vote across that country, and they got all the votes counted by the day of the election. So, I mean, we have to be smart enough in our country to keep driving towards, having an answer, as opposed to, because people's confidence goes down when the answer doesn't come for a week after the election.
So, again, in states like North Dakota, we'll have an answer on that night. We've got everything in place to be able to sort of deliver an answer. So, whether it's a local election, a statewide election, national election--
COLLINS: Yes.
BURGUM: --we're going to know the--
COLLINS: Well, it took four days in 2020. A lot of that was because there was so much mail-in voting, because we were in the middle of a pandemic, as you know. And also, if this race is close, it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong, if the counting takes longer. There are also hand recounts in some states.
Governor, I do want to ask you, because you wrote an Op-Ed, a few months ago, talking about RFK Jr., saying that conservatives can't trust him.
And you said, you wrote, "His ideas are downright dangerous, and anyone who identifies as a conservative, or simply as somebody who loves their country, best steer clear."
Is that advice that you would also recommend to the Trump transition, given they are considering him for some kind of high-profile role if Trump does win next week?
BURGUM: Well, I think what is good news is whether it's Tulsi Gabbard, or RFK, or regular auto workers that might have voted, you know, voted Democrat, and their parents voted Democrat their whole life? That they're coming over and joining the Republican Party.
Because I think that they see that President Trump's policies are good for everybody. They're good for Independents. They're good for Democrats. They're good for Republicans.
COLLINS: Well would you trust him in a West Wing role, or with access to vaccine data that is not hidden, though, that the Transition co- chief said to me, last night, he wants RFK Jr. to have access to?
BURGUM: Well, I think, again, that will be -- that will be a decision up to the President, on whether or not he wants to do that.
But I think what is -- what is important that you're seeing is that the Republicans are building a broader coalition that they've ever built.
President Trump is bringing people way beyond what people think of, as his base. And I think that's why you're seeing wherever he goes, that there's a turnout of people that haven't voted for him, in 2016 and 2020 that are voting for him this time around, because they see that he's willing to listen. He's willing to listen.
And I think the coalition he's building is working people, people that work and have a paycheck, people that are in retirement, worrying about how to make ends meet. That's who I'm seeing at all these events around the country.
And it's pretty clear to them that they see a path with President Trump back towards prosperity. They were better off under President Trump than they have been under the last four years. And all the talking and all the name-calling by the Democrats is not going to change their mind about their lived experience, which is, they were better off under President Trump, and that's where they want to go back to.
COLLINS: Yes, OK, well, Trump is like the king of name-calling, as you know.
Governor Doug Burgum, thank you for your time. Let's see what happens, next week.
Up next. One of the world's leading authoritarians says that he just got off the phone with Donald Trump. He has his fingers crossed for a victory, on Tuesday night.
I'm going to speak with the legendary journalist and author of a new book, Bob Woodward, up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Viktor Orban.
Viktor Orban.
He's the head of Hungary, a very powerful man, very strong man.
Viktor Orban said, Put Trump back, and it'll all stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Hungary's authoritarian leader, Viktor Orban, revealed today that he recently spoke with the former President, tweeting that he just got off the phone with Donald Trump, "I wished him the best of luck for next Tuesday. Only five days to go. Fingers crossed."
Of course, this is the Prime Minister who is responsible for the erosion of democratic institutions in Hungary. He's cracked down on the country's justice system, introduced anti-LGBTQ laws, vilified immigrants, and has reshaped the country's political system to benefit himself.
But for people in MAGA circles, Viktor Orban has become near-superstar name recognition. A lot of that is due, in large part, to how often Donald Trump talks about him, out on the campaign trail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: There's a man, Viktor Orban, did anyone ever hear of him? He's probably like, one of the strongest leaders anywhere in the world.
I had dinner last night with a great gentleman from Hungary, Prime Minister of Hungary, Viktor Orban.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: Prime Minister of Hungary, very tough man, strong man.
Viktor Orban, he is the head of Hungary, a very powerful man. Very strong man. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source, tonight, is the legendary journalist, Bob Woodward, who has reported extensively on Donald Trump's history of flattering global strongmen, including in his new book, a number one New York Times bestseller "War," and highly recommended.
BOB WOODWARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON POST, AUTHOR, "WAR": Thank you.
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Bob, from your reporting, what is it about Donald Trump's presidency that has someone, like Viktor Orban, saying, "Fingers crossed" that he gets in office again?
WOODWARD: Well, Kaitlan, it's very well-known and established that Trump really loves autocrats, because he aspires to being an autocrat.
And I think, at this point in the campaign, if you'll bear with me, I really think it's still worth examining who the candidates are, particularly Trump.
I've spent a lot of time, written books, really, the last seven years of my life, on Trump, trying to find out who he is. And there is a summary, and that is, there are four things that Trump does not like. Advice, the Constitution, democracy and the truth. That is, who Donald Trump is. And I establish it in my books, my experiences with him.
If you'll again bear with me, in the year, 2020, the year of the Coronavirus, I did 19 interviews with Trump, nine hours. And he was warned, he got the advice about the Coronavirus coming. It took me months to find out about this. He ignored it. He never developed a plan.
It is, if you look at that, and it's all on tape, all of it done with his permission, you see this man, who is totally focused on himself, his own instincts. And look what he let happen in this country, the last year of his presidency. And he could have stopped it by just addressing the truth and dealing with the advice he got.
COLLINS: Well, and you write in your book that Trump is far worse than Nixon, that's a quote, which is pretty striking from someone who broke the Watergate scandal with Carl Bernstein.
And I was thinking to the parallels of the 1972 election. Nixon won in a landslide. He took 49 states. His opponent, McGovern, out on the campaign trail, was warning about corruption, and what four more years of that would look like.
I mean, do you think that could be a scenario that we're in, a week from now?
WOODWARD: Well, I believe we will see. But, I mean, we really need to go deep on what did Trump do as president, that last year, 2020. His National Security Adviser, Robert O'Brien. This took months for me to establish. Came to Trump, on January 28th of that year. There was one case of the Coronavirus in the United States. And Robert O'Brien said, Mr. President, the biggest threat to your national security, the national security of this country, is going to be Coronavirus.
His deputy, Matt Pottinger, who'd spent years as Wall Street Journal reporter in China, said to the President, This is going to be like the Spanish flu pandemic, in which 650,000 people killed.
What did Trump do? He ignored it.
I was interviewing Trump, and found out about this, and said -- and it -- shocking. The information he had, if he had just shared with the public, saying, I was warned by some experts. Let's do something about it. Let's plan.
In the middle of that summer, July 20th, my last interview with him, if you will bear with me again. I said, Mr. President, a 140,000 people have died of the virus in your country. You were warned. You ignored it. Now, as I'd been asking him for months, What's your plan? What action are you going to take as the President of the United States?
He said, Oh, don't worry, we'll have a plan.
I said, When? What is it? What's the plan?
COLLINS: Wow.
WOODWARD: And he said, I'll have a plan in a 106 days.
I froze. That was Election Day. He was only concerned about the election. And this is all on tape. It's all -- if you can see the performance, the neglect, the failure to care?
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:50:00]
WOODWARD: Anyway. It's a clear case of moral felony, in my view, what Trump did his last year as president.
COLLINS: Yes.
WOODWARD: So, there's no better guide to what he might do--
COLLINS: Yes.
WOODWARD: --as President again.
COLLINS: It's a very -- it's a very telling book. You said the four things. Advice, the Constitution, truth and democracy.
Bob Woodward, we will always bear with you. And thank you for joining me tonight. WOODWARD: Thank you.
COLLINS: The book, "War," congratulations, is out now. Everyone should read it.
WOODWARD: Thank you.
COLLINS: And tonight, one of the leading experts on vaccines is here to set the record straight, after that interview you saw here, last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, CO-CHAIR, TRUMP-VANCE TRANSITION TEAM, CHAIRMAN & CEO, CANTOR FITZGERALD: We are not.
COLLINS: Vaccines are safe. RFK, I mean, he--
LUTNICK: Why do you think vaccines are safe?
COLLINS: RFK--
LUTNICK: There's no product liability anymore.
COLLINS: Because they're proven. They're--
LUTNICK: They're not proven.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: There was a moment, on this show, last night, that a lot of people in Trump world have been texting, and calling about, today.
The Co-chair of Trump's transition team, Howard Lutnick, the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald, was pushing conspiracy theories about vaccines, like the long-debunked one that they are linked to autism in children. They're not.
But that came after he had a lengthy meeting with RFK Jr., about a prospective role in a second Trump term.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTNICK: What he explained was, when he was born, we had three vaccines, and autism was one in 10,000. Now, a baby is born with 76 vaccines. Because in 1986, they waived product liability for vaccines.
And, and, here's the best one, they started paying the people at the NIH, right? They pay them a piece of the money for the vaccine companies.
COLLINS: But hold on. LUTNICK: Wait a minute. Let me finish.
And so, all of these vaccines--
COLLINS: But -- but -- but--
LUTNICK: --came out without product liability.
COLLINS: Hang on.
LUTNICK: So what happened now?
COLLINS: Hang on.
LUTNICK: Autism is one in 34.
COLLINS: OK.
LUTNICK: Amazing.
COLLINS: Neither of us are doctors.
LUTNICK: We are not.
COLLINS: Vaccines are safe. RFK, I mean, he--
LUTNICK: Why do you think vaccines are safe?
COLLINS: RFK--
LUTNICK: There's no product liability anymore.
COLLINS: Because they're proven. They're--
LUTNICK: They're not proven.
COLLINS: Kids get them and they're fine.
LUTNICK: Why do you think they're fine?
COLLINS: But-- because they're proven scientifically to be so.
LUTNICK: I mean, I mean with -- how about this? It was one in 10,000 people with autism.
COLLINS: They go through rigorous amounts of testing.
LUTNICK: We all--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note, so after that interview aired last night, after midnight, Lutnick clarified that both he and his family are vaccinated.
But the guy who is in charge of helping line up personnel, if Donald Trump wins, defended RFK's desire to have access to vaccine data, if Trump wins. Even though I should note, it's not hidden. You can see it for yourself.
Someone who knows that well is my source. The Director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Dr. Paul Offit. Also, a member of the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee, and a founding advisory board member of the Autism Science Foundation.
So Doctor, I am very grateful that a doctor is joining us on this.
I just -- just tell me your reaction to listening to that. I'm sure you heard that a lot before. What did you make of it?
DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA, MEMBER, FDA VACCINE ADVISORY COMMITTEE: Well, there were seven misstatements of fact in three and a half minutes. I'm not sure what the record is. But that had to be close.
I mean, when they start things like there's 76 vaccines, there's -- vaccines prevent 17 different diseases. When he actually, when he said that when RFK Jr. was born, which was 1954, there were only three vaccines. Technically, there were actually four.
And it's just the notion that we are still talking about whether or not the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine causes autism, which was something that was raised in the late 1990s? There have been 18 studies done, in seven countries, on three continents, involving thousands of children, costing tens of millions of dollars, and they all found the same thing. You're at no greater risk of autism if you got the vaccine that or if you didn't. It's amazing that we still talk about this.
COLLINS: Yes, I was not even expecting it to come up. And I think what I was thinking about during that, and what I took away from it, as I was having conversations about it today, is this is someone who met with RFK Jr., who we know is a liar about vaccines, for two and a half hours, and was persuaded to follow that line of thinking. Obviously, we've seen that happen a lot.
We heard from Trump's running mate, J.D. Vance. He was talking to Joe Rogan, today, about the COVID vaccine. He said that he got the COVID vaccine, that his family did as well.
But here's what he had to say about after getting it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: The moment where I really started to get red-pilled on the whole vax thing was the sickest that I've been, in the last 15 years, by far, was when I took the vaccine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Isn't that just an immune response side effects that are maybe not fun, but they're not dangerous? OFFIT: That's exactly what it is. As you develop an immune response, you make certain immunological proteins that cause symptoms, symptoms like headache or muscle ache or body ache or fever, low-grade fever, sometimes nausea, so sure.
Although, I would argue that J.D. Vance would be much sicker if we actually got COVID. So, it's a very small price to pay to avoid natural infection, which is infinitely worse. For example, it killed 1.1 million people in this country.
COLLINS: Does this whole thing worry you, about another pandemic happening, if Trump is in charge, or just how the approach to vaccines would look like if RFK does get some senior role in a Trump admin?
OFFIT: Yes. I mean, we had the SARS pandemic in 2002. The MERS pandemic in 2012. Now, we have this pandemic that started in 2019. I think it's fair to say there's going to be another pandemic. That's three in the last 20 years. And we need to be ready. And I feel like, in some ways, with this constant misinformation and disinformation, we may be less ready.
COLLINS: Yes.
Well, Dr. Paul Offit, I'm grateful to you to come on, and to correct the record, and give those facts to our audience. Thank you, Doctor.
OFFIT: Thank you.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: And before we go tonight, an important programming reminder, here on CNN.
An all-new episode of "HAVE I GOT NEWS FOR YOU" with the host, Roy Wood Jr., Alabama's own, and also team captains, Amber Ruffin and Michael Ian Black. That airs this Saturday, your favorite hour, 09:00 p.m. Eastern, here. A special guest includes a friend of THE SOURCE, former Trump White House communications director, Anthony Scaramucci.
Be sure to watch.
We'll see you here, tomorrow night.
Thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
