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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump's Defense Secy Pick Hegseth To Republicans: The "Battle" Is "Just Beginning"; Trump Picks Transition Co-Chair Linda McMahon As Education Secy; Former Deputy FBI Dir.: "Scary Beyond Reason" If Kash Patel Heads FBI. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired November 19, 2024 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: You can also hear it at our online grief community, CNN.com/allthereisonline. You can listen to all the podcasts there.

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Thanks for watching. I'll see you, tomorrow.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

We are live, from what has become the center of the political universe, not far from Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago Club. And I have new reporting about one of the President-Elect's most embattled Cabinet picks.

I'm Kaitlan Collins, in West Palm Beach, Florida. And this is THE SOURCE.

The picks of who will staff a second Trump term are coming out of Mar- a-Lago, at a record pace. And tonight, another familiar TV personality has been tapped for a top position.

The President-Elect is going with Dr. Oz to oversee health care coverage for more than 150 million Americans, nominating him as the Administrator of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services.

Mehmet Oz, of course, ran unsuccessfully for Senate, two years ago, with Trump's backing, in that race. He's a cardiothoracic surgeon. He does have a medical degree, unlike RFK Jr. who was recently nominated to lead the Health department that his agency will fall under, if he is confirmed.

In the past, we've seen Dr. Oz previously push questionable weight loss drugs, and COVID treatments, that were not backed up by science.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MEHMET OZ, AMERICAN TV SHOW HOST AND PHYSICIAN: And now I've got the number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat. It's raspberry ketone.

What I believe is one of the most important discoveries we've made to help you burn fat faster. Green coffee bean extract.

This is what four-scone (ph) does to your belly fat. Whoa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ooh.

OZ: I actually do personally believe in the items that I talk about in the show. I passionately study them. I recognize that oftentimes they don't have the scientific muster to present as fact.

LARRY KING, AMERICAN AUTHOR: What is Hydroxychloroquine? What is that?

OZ: It turns out that it might have an effect against this virus.

I would take it myself, if I was having issues with the virus.

I just saw a nice piece in The Lancet, arguing that the opening of schools may only cost us 2 to 3 percent in terms of total mortality. It might be a trade-off some folks would consider.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: As Trump is rolling out his new picks, like that one tonight, I should note he's also standing by his most embattled ones so far, including Matt Gaetz as Attorney General.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Mr. President, are you reconsidering the nomination of Matt Gaetz?

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Trump with a quick no, there, as he and Gaetz have been lobbying Republican senators to confirm his pick for attorney general.

This is all happening, as the House Ethics Committee is set to meet, tomorrow, behind closed doors, as they are facing a lot of pressure, some of it even from Republicans, to release its report on Gaetz, from that investigation, when he was a member of Congress, into whether he engaged in sexual misconduct and illicit drug use. Allegations that he has repeatedly denied, I should note. The former Congressman will personally be on the Hill, tomorrow, alongside Vice President-Elect JD Vance, to lobby senators, in-person, alongside some of Trump's other Cabinet picks.

That includes, we are told, the veteran and former Fox News host, Pete Hegseth. That's Trump's pick to run the Pentagon, who is facing a confirmation battle of his own, after he was accused of sexual assault. He denies the allegation, and his attorney has acknowledged that he did pay the woman, who made it in a settlement agreement, but argued that the encounter was consensual between the two of them.

I have new reporting, tonight, that Hegseth told Republicans, during a prayer call, this evening, that was hosted by the Republican National Committee. And I'm quoting from Hegseth now. He said, quote, "This is a battle that is just beginning." Hegseth was seated next to his wife, during the call, he said -- and he said that his family's had an outpouring of support since he was named, and "That's the reason why we can endure the attacks and the onslaughts."

Here with me tonight is CNN's Kristen Holmes, in West Palm Beach, as we're covering all of this coming out here.

Pete Hegseth, those comments were notable, tonight, because it was really one of the first times we've actually heard from him, since he was announced, and since he was facing these questions, of whether or not he can get confirmed.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he's been keeping a really low profile, since all of this happened. We know, behind-the-scenes, he has had a number of conversations with Donald Trump, with Susie Wiles, all about the allegations, which we had reported, the team was incredibly surprised by because of the fact that Pete Hegseth had not been vetted.

Now, Donald Trump himself has said that he's going to stand by him. And not only that, Vice President-Elect JD Vance, as you mentioned, is going to the Hill, with Hegseth in tow tomorrow, or the next day -- the next couple days, with him and Matt Gaetz, to try and get GOP senators on board.

[21:05:00]

But this was really the first time that we have heard from him at all, since this happened.

COLLINS: Yes, and on that, what they didn't like was that they were surprised by, that they did not know about this, going into it. He had signed this agreement a few years ago with this woman.

The other comment, you heard Trump today, it was a rare outing that we've seen him make from Mar-a-Lago. But he answered very quickly that he was not reconsidering his Attorney General pick here.

HOLMES: And that's what I've been told time and time again. Now, obviously, everyone has the caveat of what exactly is in this ethics report, and is that possibly going to change his mind. But what I've been told is that it's likely not going to, that he has doubled down on this idea that Matt Gaetz should be attorney general, because of the fact that he feels like he handpicked him.

And, as we reported, even before Donald Trump got elected, he always thought that the Attorney General was going to be the most powerful position--

COLLINS: Yes.

HOLMES: --and most important position, in his administration, because of what he wants to do to Department of Justice. One, gut it, but two, also bring it under the Executive. And so, essentially, he would be working in tandem with that attorney general.

We also know that one of the things he likes about Matt Gaetz is that he wasn't impressed by many of the other candidates. He thought that they kind of took it very seriously, in terms of what it would look like, if they were sitting down for a judicial appointment. They were looking at notes. They were talking to him with legal terms.

He wanted a bomb-thrower. He wanted somebody, who was going to go out there, get on TV, and spit fire. And that's what he feels like he found in Matt Gaetz, which is why he doesn't want to back down.

COLLINS: Well, and that seems to be a recurring theme. Obviously, with Trump, we know he values someone who is good on television.

But with the pick of Mehmet Oz, tonight, coming in for CMS. I mean, that was led by Seema Verma, in his first term. It's a very serious position. And I think the question of what that looks like with both of them running it. I mean, someone -- Mehmet Oz is someone, who he backed for Senate, even though people encouraged him to not back him in that candidate to--

HOLMES: Right.

COLLINS: --in that race, to back another Republican.

What are you hearing about that pick tonight?

HOLMES: Look, I think this is the perfect example of how Donald Trump is building out this made-for-TV cabinet.

If you look at the people he is choosing, he is not necessarily choosing people with experience, or even managerial experience. He is choosing people, who have gone on television and defended him in the past, who have gone on television and talked to millions of viewers.

I mean, even when Mehmet Oz was running for Senate, and Donald Trump came out and campaigned for him, one of the things he kept saying about him, when he was talking at rallies, or in interviews, was, Have you seen how good he is on television, when he talks to people, the women just love him. That is what Donald Trump values.

And when we talk about Donald Trump's cabinet, like Sean Duffy, for example, I mean, even before he was a Congressman, before he was a Fox News host, he is a reality TV star. He did Real World: Boston.

I mean, these are people, who have spent a lot of time in front of a television. And you can see that Donald Trump is building them out to be, what I've been told, is effective communicators. Donald Trump wants to look up at Fox, wants to look up at the TV screen, and see his Cabinet picks, out there, defending him. And in order to do that, a lot of these people have to be TV-trained.

COLLINS: Yes.

HOLMES: And that is why he's choosing them.

COLLINS: Yes, clearly something he values.

Kristen Holmes, keep us updated, because we know those Cabinet picks are still coming in. Thank you for that.

Up next, my inside source represented Arizona in the Senate, when Trump put forth his first cabinet, and was most recently the Ambassador to Turkey. And Jeff Flake joins me now.

And great to have you here, Ambassador Flake.

And given you once voted on Trump's nominees, what is your assessment of his Cabinet picks so far?

JEFF FLAKE, (R) FORMER U.S. SENATOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY: Well, I think every senator goes into it, every Republican senator certainly, thinking, Hey, the President won the election, elections matter. A lot of Democrats will feel that way as well. And that's how I felt during President Obama's administration, and the first part of President Trump's.

So, unless there's really some circumstances in which somebody is just not qualified, or information comes up that would disqualify them, then the President usually gets his way.

COLLINS: So, do you think Trump's going to get his way here? Do you think most of these picks are going to get confirmed by your former colleagues?

FLAKE: I think most of them, certainly. But I think a few of them probably not. I don't think we've seen a situation like this. This is really flooding the zone. They're all coming quick. And a couple of them, certainly, Matt Gaetz, that one is troublesome, certainly.

COLLINS: Well, I mean, if he was -- if you were personally still in the Senate and voting on this, this is a question that your colleagues -- your former colleagues, have faced today, which is, are--

FLAKE: Right.

COLLINS: --do they want to see the House Ethics report? Is that important to them when it comes to casting their vote?

Personally, how would you feel about that? FLAKE: Oh, boy, you've got to have that information. And it's going to come out. That's one thing that I would say, to any nominee, If you think that there's information out there that you don't want out, that's not going to get out? It will get out. The question is, how will it get out? Will you control the narrative a little more, or let the narrative control you?

[21:10:00]

And in this case, with Gaetz, I think that if that -- if the House Ethics Committee report doesn't come out, then the information will leak in some way, or -- that information will come out.

And if I were a senator today, I would certainly want to see it. You don't want to vote on one of these nominees, thinking there might be something out there that is disqualifying.

COLLINS: Senator Tommy Tuberville, a Republican from Alabama, said today that he would maybe vote no, on Gaetz, potentially, if the allegations that came out against him were credible, was the word I believe that he used.

I mean, how do you think -- how does a senator make a judgment like that? Because obviously, for any senator, to defy the President here, would be notable, but obviously a Republican senator, that much.

FLAKE: Right, yes. And there were times when I did do that, voted against the President's nominee.

I think Senator Tuberville said it well. If there's information that's going to be disqualifying? Remember, this person is going to be the Attorney General. If he conducted himself in the way that it is alleged, then that would be disqualifying, with regard to underage girls, or with regard to drug-fueled parties. That's serious information, and I hope the senators get that information when they make the decision.

COLLINS: Yes, and of course, those are allegations that he's denied. We're seeing what those two women, who testified to the House Ethics Committee, have said. We're hearing from their attorney--

FLAKE: Right.

COLLINS: --including, about pictures and whatnot.

But on the Cabinet overall, one thing that I've heard from some Trump sources, even, is that if any of these people were put up just alone, most of them may not -- may struggle to get confirmed. Of course, Pete Hegseth is facing a confirmation issue.

FLAKE: Right.

COLLINS: Matt Gaetz. Kristi Noem to lead DHS. Tulsi Gabbard as the Director of National Intelligence. Now, RFK Jr. at HHS. And Mehmet Oz.

Do you think in this sense, because so many of them are up here that maybe would have trouble before that, that helps them, in this sense?

FLAKE: Right, most definitely, yes. It says something, when a television doctor, that came up today, Mehmet Oz, under normal circumstances, would be scrutinized a lot more. But I suppose that he'll sail on through quickly, given some of the other nominations.

So, yes, flooding the zone, as the President does, certainly helps the other nominees. But I suppose that there will be a few that won't -- don't get -- that won't get through.

COLLINS: You think there will be several that don't get through?

FLAKE: No, a few. A few, I said. Most of them will get through. I mean, the Cabinet is large. There are other nominees as well. You have ambassadorships coming up. And I've had the privilege of being on both sides of that dais, being the nominee of the last President.

COLLINS: Yes.

FLAKE: And, like I said, if there's information out there, usually the FBI checks will get it. If they don't, the Senate will. So, if there's any nominee who thinks that they can hide information from the Senate, I think they're mistaken.

COLLINS: Well, and on that front, when the race for the leadership was going on, on the Republican side, Trump demanded that all of those candidates agree to recess appointments, where he would be able to effectively sidestep senators--

FLAKE: Right.

COLLINS: --and the advice and consent process that takes place, the vetting of these nominees, which Alexander Hamilton wrote, was to -- determined to keep unfit people out of those positions that have such power.

I mean, would you personally ever be OK with getting rid of that responsibility of yours, as a senator, to confirm someone in such a high-profile role, as Attorney General or Pentagon chief?

FLAKE: Absolutely not.

The President certainly deserves to get most of his picks. But the Senate is given this role for a reason. The Constitution gives the Senate this role.

And the notion that you would proactively go into recess, just so the President could appoint people, and you wouldn't have to vote on it? That's an awful thing. And George Will had a great column on this. I hope that every conservative reads it.

So no, I would not be OK with giving that away, particularly the recess appointment, because the Senate would have to proactively do that, and give that authority to the President, over their prerogative. And senators shouldn't give away their prerogative like that. COLLINS: Ambassador Jeff Flake, thank you for your time tonight.

FLAKE: You bet. Thank you.

COLLINS: I have more reporting ahead, on the drama behind the namings of the two Trump transition chairs. They both got cabinet jobs. We'll tell you how that was shaking out and how it surprised people in Trump's inner circle.

[21:15:00]

Plus, the person who is constantly in Trump's orbit now, showing off another rocket launch with the President-Elect right at his side. What Elon Musk stands to gain from this blossoming friendship.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President-Elect Donald Trump has officially tapped Linda McMahon to be the next Education secretary, therefore putting his Transition Co-Chair in charge of a government agency that he has repeatedly promised to abolish.

I'm told that this decision came after McMahon had been pushed aside for the role that she was initially going for, Commerce secretary, which was instead given to her fellow Transition Co-chair today, Howard Lutnick.

[21:20:00]

Lutnick himself had been in a bitter battle to become the next Treasury secretary under Donald Trump. But he will now be in charge, with this job, of imposing the sweeping tariffs that Trump pledged to put in place.

My sources tonight both used to work for the President-Elect. And Erin Perrine and Sarah Matthews join me now.

Erin, as you look at this, it's kind of in this rapid-fire process, to get these nominees named. They're trying to get a lot of it done by the end of this week, I've heard, for the major roles. But given what you just heard there, I imagine that kind of infighting process, vying for jobs, sounds pretty familiar to you.

ERIN PERRINE, FMR. DIRECTOR OF PRESS COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, AXIOM STRATEGIES: There's always competitiveness going into a new administration or a second, term two administration. That wouldn't be any different.

The difference here is Donald Trump, he's already been in the White House once before. Those who maybe would have gotten in, in the previous administration, might not get a role this time, because he understands a bit more of how the buildings function, and what it takes to run a cabinet and an administration.

But with the choice today, for Lutnick at Commerce, that is a very big role. There was reporting about Treasury. But there is a lot that gets covered in the Commerce jurisdiction, including the Olympics coming up, with oversight in the Senate Committee on that as well. This is some big-time decisions being made.

Rapid fire is also going to make it a bit harder for the media to do immediate scrutiny. But there's plenty of time going into the committee hearing process.

COLLINS: Yes, and of course, Trump's also looking for loyalty more as a defining feature, this time around, picking these roles, going after loyalists, who he feels have been by his side.

And Sarah, with Mehmet Oz being picked to run CMS, a very important agency within the Health department. You were there during the pandemic, when it was happening, when Trump was in office with him. He's praising Oz. He said he's an eminent physician, heart surgeon, an inventor, called him a good communicator.

But I wonder, given what we just were hearing him talking about Hydroxychloroquine, and pushing these things that didn't have scientific backing, what you make of the bigger picture of, if he gets confirmed, and RFK gets confirmed, what HHS looks like, in a second Trump term?

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: Yes, as you mentioned, we definitely, during the first Trump administration, learned the importance of these offices, and having qualified doctors in these roles. Or not even doctors. RFK obviously doesn't have a background in that.

But I think that it's going to be up to the Senate to decide whether these nominees are up to the job here, and that's why they have the role to advise and consent, and why I think it's so important that we don't go along with recess appointments.

Because I do think that while Trump does deserve some deference, obviously he was given a mandate in this election, won the popular vote, it doesn't mean that he should just get free rein over all of these positions within his cabinet.

And so, they're definitely going to be under some scrutiny, like you mentioned, with Dr. Oz, and some of his more controversial stances. Obviously, when he was running for Senate, obviously -- a lot of this already came out. So, we'll see.

I do think, though that you'll probably see a nominee like him squeak through. But someone like an RFK Jr., or Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, or Pete Hegseth at DOD, those ones are probably going to have a little bit of a tougher time.

COLLINS: Yes, that's what we just heard from Jeff Flake, saying, Normally, someone like Dr. Oz may have a tough time getting confirmed. He may not, this time, given the slate of Cabinet picks.

And Erin, on that front, with us learning tonight that Linda McMahon is getting the Education secretary -- Education department job. Trump has promised to abolish that. He obviously wanted to make major changes to it, his first time he was in office.

I want you to listen to what Vivek Ramaswamy had to say about cuts that they would like to impose, at the Department of Education.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIVEK RAMASWAMY, INCOMING CO-LEADER, "DEPT. OF GOVT. EFFICIENCY": We expect mass reductions. We expect certain agencies to be deleted outright. We expect mass reductions in force in areas of the federal government that are bloated. We expect massive cuts among federal contractors and others who are overbilling the federal government. So yes, we expect all of the above.

And I think people will be surprised by, I think, how quickly we're able to move with some of those changes, given the legal backdrop the Supreme Court has given us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Erin, they've also talked about just deleting the Education department, outright. Obviously, an Act of Congress would be required to abolish it. But I wonder, what you make of the pledges and the ability to deliver on that.

PERRINE: Yes, these are very big promises, and it's going to take a lot to be able to deliver on them.

But I think with Linda McMahon at the helm, and especially where you've seen Republicans be moving, when it comes to education, within the last decade? When it comes to charter schools? When it comes to voucher programs? When it comes for the ability for the tax dollar to follow the student, and they don't have to stay in a failing education system? That's something I think you will see pursued at the Department of Education, even if they're trying to make cuts and wind- down a massive bureaucracy.

[21:25:00]

Both can be true at the same time. You can make cuts. And ultimately, to your point, Kaitlan, it would have to be an act of Congress, to abolish it. But you can make steady, smart, strategic cuts, and still make education better for students in the United States, who got so tragically left behind during the pandemic.

COLLINS: Sarah, what do you -- how are you just viewing this process overall, just as someone who is -- who is there, previously, and has seen what the West Wing could look like, in just a few weeks from now?

MATTHEWS: I think it's been really funny, seeing all this discourse, where there were some pundits coming on here, and saying that Trump is playing 4D chess. Look, he's putting up some of these crazier nominees, and knowing that they'll get struck down, and then his second choice will go up, and it will slide through.

That's not what's happening at all. Donald Trump wants these people in these roles, because he feels like he was given a mandate, winning the popular vote. And you're seeing him fill out all these positions with a cast of characters, who are effective communicators on TV, and loyalists to him. And that's what he wants.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what it looks like, if they're confirmed.

Sarah Matthews. Erin Perrine. Thank you both so much.

Up next. Donald Trump left Mar-a-Lago today. It was one of the rare occasions that he has done so, since winning the election. He was in Texas for the SpaceX launch, alongside Elon Musk, who has not often been seen apart from Donald Trump, since he won. We're going to look at some of the reasons why, next.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Donald Trump left Mar-a-Lago today, in a rare outing since the election, to watch Elon Musk's SpaceX test-launch its megarocket this evening. The moment illustrates how so many of the decisions that the next President will make will directly impact the world's richest man.

Elon Musk has stuck by Trump's side, nearly every day since his reelection. Anytime you see Trump, you'll notice Musk is there, around Mar-a-Lago, at the UFC Fight, in Washington, and also at the site of today's launch.

Of course, when you look at many of the cabinet positions, where Trump has already named his pick, these are people who would take over departments that pay Elon's companies, billions of dollars combined. Some would take over departments that are currently investigating one of Elon Musk's companies. Some of them do both.

In fact, Elon Musk's companies are facing so many regulatory battles, and federal investigations, you can't really fit them all on the screen at the same time. That's where some of the concerns that we've heard about conflict of interest comes in.

Elon Musk, for his part, has made clear his view of regulators.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA MOTORS: So that's like having a gun to your child's head. Those bastards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Several of Trump's choices, like his pick to head the FCC have openly championed for backing off oversight of Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENDAN CARR, FCC COMMISSIONER: You know, if your last name is Musk, or another last name, you get the book thrown at you for no reason at all. The cavalcade of administrative agencies and law enforcement bodies that are taking actions on Elon Musk that seem very disproportionate and seem like they can only be explained by politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That massive rocket that Trump watched launch today really does kind of encapsulate the whole complicated arrangement here.

NASA is paying SpaceX as much as $4 billion to take astronauts to the moon. But some environmental concerns at the launch site prompted the FAA to delay previous tests. And Musk is suing the FAA (ph) for what he alleges is regulatory overreach. It's really just one example, of how the incoming Trump administration will technically be both Elon Musk's biggest customer, and potentially one of his biggest headaches. It's a question tonight.

My source tonight is the retired NASA astronaut, and retired Navy Captain, Scott Kelly, who is also the twin brother of Arizona senator, Mark Kelly, who, of course, knows a thing or two about space flight himself.

And it's great to have you here, sir.

Between how effectively SpaceX -- SpaceX dictates NASA's launch schedule, and also how the Pentagon is relying on Musk to get a lot of its satellites into orbit. What do you think the Trump-Musk relationship means, for the future of areas like space and defense?

SCOTT KELLY, RETIRED NASA ASTRONAUT, U.S. NAVY (RET.): Well, certainly, there's a lot of potential, I think, for a conflict of interest, when you have a guy like Elon Musk, who's involved in so many companies, so many different kinds of technology companies, also working in the U.S. government, as the head of an organization that is going to decide which things we keep, and which ones we throw away.

So, on one hand, Elon's an incredible engineer, incredibly talented, does some amazing things. On the other hand, this, I don't think it passes the smell test very well.

COLLINS: Yes, I think you make a good point there. I think there's a lot of people who say, Elon Musk is the world's richest man. He is incredibly smart. Certainly, Trump touts that all the time about why he keeps him around.

But you just said you do believe there's the potential for conflict of interest. I mean, how worried are you about that?

[21:35:00]

KELLY: Well, very worried. I mean, he could potentially control NASA's budget, what NASA does and does not do. In some cases, NASA and, I think, SpaceX, or whatever Elon wants to do, could be in conflict with NASA's mission. And for him to have, I think, the power, and have the future President kind of beholden to him, is potentially dangerous for the organization. COLLINS: Yes, and you look at this, because when you talk about SpaceX, in and of itself, this was the sixth launch, I believe, that's happened this year. They want to do 25, next year, I believe is the goal. So that's the question. We've seen how Elon Musk has talked about the regulation here.

On this relationship, in and of itself, and the reliance that the U.S. government has, regardless of Trump being elected, on Elon Musk, how much do you think he's going to benefit from having Trump in office?

KELLY: I don't know for sure, but I think potentially there could be huge benefits. I mean, his companies rely on government contracts, in many cases. They also rely on regulatory oversight, like you were saying earlier, and he's going to be right in the middle of all that, in a way, I think, that doesn't benefit the American public.

I mean, our government is there to benefit the citizens, not to benefit an individual. And he will have, I think, potentially reap extraordinary benefits from his relationship with the future President.

COLLINS: Is this something that you'd like to see lawmakers look into? I mean, I heard Richard Blumenthal today, he's a Democrat, saying that he has concerns about it as well.

KELLY: Oh, absolutely, I think they need to look into it.

I think they also need to look into the fact that he's potentially had all these conversations with Putin. And what are those about? What are they talking about so many times, over the course of the last few years? I don't see where that -- where that makes sense, and how that is in the best interest of the U.S. citizens.

COLLINS: Scott Kelly, a lot of questions, going forward. Thank you for your time tonight.

KELLY: My pleasure, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next--

KELLY: Thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you.

Up next tonight. Vice President-Elect JD Vance deleted a tweet today that did confirm one group that they are interviewing at Mar-a-Lago, in the last 24 hours, and what it has to do with the FBI. That's ahead.

[21:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Welcome back. We are live in West Palm Beach, Florida, tonight, where Trump's second term is taking shape. This is where President-Elect Donald Trump has been interviewing potential candidates to run the FBI, which is the clearest signal yet that he plans to fire Chris Wray, who still has three years left in his 10-year term that Trump appointed him to.

In a since-deleted tweet, Vice President-Elect JD Vance today pushed back on criticism that was directed at Senate Republicans, who had missed a vote confirming a judicial nominee of President Biden's, last night, by saying, quote, "I was meeting with President Trump to interview multiple positions for our government, including... FBI Director."

My next guest is deeply-sourced on all things Trump-world and the Republican Party. Semafor's Shelby Talcott is here with me.

And that tweet was one, you had to kind of read to the end. But then he did confirm that they are -- they were interviewing people for FBI director, last night.

There's kind of this divide in Trump-world over what kind of figure they should pick to lead the FBI next. What are you hearing about that?

SHELBY TALCOTT, POLITICS REPORTER, SEMAFOR: There's a really big divide. And it's essentially between MAGA Republicans, who want Trump loyalist Kash Patel, who is seen as somebody internally, who will shake up the FBI, and really do what Donald Trump wants done to this position.

And then there is former Congressman Mike Rogers, who is seen as more of an Establishment figure, and he has the support of a lot of members of Congress, and also a lot of the donor class.

So, there's this quiet internal debate heating up over this really key position that Donald Trump cares a lot about.

COLLINS: Well, and Mike Rogers used to work at the FBI, as a special agent. I mean, Kash Patel does not have experience at the FBI, right?

TALCOTT: Correct. And so, that's one of the arguments that we've heard from lawmakers, who support Mike Rogers, is that he is perhaps better- suited for the job. But of course, that is not always what Donald Trump looks at, when he is deciding who is going to lead these agencies.

COLLINS: Yes, and it's still remarkable that they're just making clear that, yes, he does plan to fire Chris Wray.

But the tweet that that was responding to was, was from a conservative, or a right-wing person, criticizing Senate Republicans for letting some of these judicial nominees get through.

What was notable was after that came through, it was one of the more divisive nominees as well, a lot of the Republican senators were seen with Trump today, at the launch. I mean, I saw Bill Hagerty, Ted Cruz, Kevin Cramer. They were all there standing alongside him as he was -- as he was watching, as we have highlighted here.

I should note, Trump is just landing, right now, in West Palm Beach, after coming back from Brownsville, Texas. We'll see if he speaks.

But I mean, that does say something to the effect that some of those senators are -- might be on that plane, right now.

TALCOTT: Yes, yes. And so this is--

COLLINS: And not in Washington.

TALCOTT: This is the big thing too, is who is ultimately going to support some of these potentially more controversial picks that Donald Trump has.

And when I talk to people, inside Trump-world, and ask them if some of these picks, if they really think that they can get confirmed, their argument, essentially, I wouldn't say it's a threat, but they're saying, Well, they should try it, just try and see what happens, right?

Because their argument is, Donald Trump got 76 million votes, and that shows that the American people want his mandate, and therefore lawmakers should back whoever he picks for all of these agencies.

[21:45:00]

COLLINS: We'll see what they do.

Shelby Talcott, great reporting. Thank you for that.

As I noted, you can see there, that was Trump's plane, as he was landing here, in West Palm Beach, Florida. He just returned from Texas.

My next source tonight is John Pistole, who served as the Deputy Director of the FBI, from 2004 to 2010. Also ran Transportation.

And it's great to have you here.

So, Trump actually interviewed you after he fired the last FBI director, James Comey, in 2017. What was that like? And what do you expect this process to be like?

JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER DEPUTY FBI DIRECTOR: Well, I think the process this time around will be better-organized, because he's been through the process before, obviously. I would say, was a little bit disorganized previously, with just a number of names coming, frankly, out of the blue.

And then, couple weeks later, my name surfaced. And then, yes, I followed up, and talking with the then-Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, and then a week later, meeting with President Trump, and interviewing with him. And it was, let's just say, very interesting time, in the Oval Office, there, where I briefed prior presidents, dozens and dozens of times, and this was the most interesting time. So, I think what they're looking for is somebody who can not only protect the American people, because obviously that's the FBI director's job, in leading the men and women of the FBI, to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And if the FBI director doesn't do that, then she or he is not doing their job. So, that's first and foremost, in addition to whatever loyalty perspectives that the President is looking for.

COLLINS: Yes.

PISTOLE: But the whole notion, as your viewers know, is that the Director has a 10-year term, to outlast any two-term president. And so, that's the -- is to be apolitical as much as possible.

COLLINS: Yes. Well, so what do you make of the fact that Trump clearly plans to fire Chris Wray before that 10-year term, designed to insulate the position from politics, before it's over?

PISTOLE: Well, I think there's been a lot of people speculating, speculating that he's going to fire Director Wray. But I think one of the questions is, what are the intended consequences of that action?

And then what might be the unintended consequences if there's, for example, heaven forbid, but another terrorist attack, and you have somebody who was inexperienced, doesn't know what they're doing there? And if they tried to quote, Clean house, by taking out the leadership, which is unprecedented, because everybody, other than of the 37,000 men and women are -- there's only one political appointee. From Deputy Director, my position, on down, those are all civil service employees.

And so, I think that would really cause a lot of concern, not only here in U.S., but for all the partners around the world that rely on the FBI for information, evidence, intelligence sharing, all those things that the FBI has a great reputation for.

COLLINS: Yes.

PISTOLE: So, I think you have to look at what are the possible unintended consequences.

COLLINS: Did Trump ask you about loyalty when you interviewed with him for the job?

PISTOLE: No, he didn't.

COLLINS: So tonight, he's looking at -- I asked that question because tonight, we just were talking with Shelby, about who he's looking at.

One of them is Kash Patel as a potential option Here. he is a MAGA firebrand in the -- to say the least. He's accused Intel agencies of running a politically-motivated vendetta against Trump. He said he's going to go after people in the government and in the media.

Does that sound like someone that you would like to see, that you would have wanted to serve under, when you were the Deputy FBI Director? PISTOLE: Well, no, I wouldn't be serving under a person like that. I mean, that's just scary beyond reason, as they say.

The other name that's been mentioned, Mike Rogers, I've known him for a long time. And he understands the FBI, because he was an agent, as you mentioned, in Chicago, as what's called a street agent. And then before, you know, he's in Congress and all that, and served on a board with them, for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. And so, he understands the FBI.

I also hope that if he is nominated and confirmed, that he also understands the importance of an independent FBI that is, again, designed to uphold, and defend the Constitution, not to have just loyalty to one person who may or may not be having the Constitution first and foremost in their minds.

COLLINS: Do you think Trump understands that?

PISTOLE: Oh, I have no idea. I learned try not to speculate about what he or any other politician may believe.

I think it really comes down to what is -- what the proof is in the pudding, as they say. Who does he nominate, and who does get confirmed? I think certain people would get confirmed, and others would have a tougher row to hoe, just -- and based on the prior reporting you've had and others, of the other nominee.

COLLINS: Yes.

PISTOLE: I think those are the challenges (ph). Definitely you got some distractions there.

[21:50:00]

COLLINS: To say the least.

John Pistole, great to have you. Thank you for that perspective tonight.

PISTOLE: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. Speaker Mike Johnson asked today what he plans to do, as Republicans are clearly going after and targeting a newly- elected transgender member of Congress with a bathroom bill.

My next source is one of the openly -- only openly transgender lawmakers in the country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:55:00]

COLLINS: Today, House Speaker Mike Johnson did not say what he plans to do about South Carolina Congresswoman Nancy Mace's resolution to ban transgender women from using women's restrooms on Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Let me be unequivocally clear. A man is a man. And a woman is a woman. And a man cannot become a woman. But I also believe that we treat everybody with dignity. And so we can do and believe all those things at the same time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That's what he said when he was asked about a bill that Mace introduced two weeks after Sarah McBride became the first transgender person elected to Congress.

McBride is going to be sworn in, in January, and responded, saying, quote, "Every day Americans go to work with people who have life journeys different than their own and engage with them respectfully, I hope members of Congress can muster that same kindness."

My source tonight knows what it's like to be the first. In 2023, Zooey Zephyr was sworn in as the first transgender Representative in the Montana State House. She was just reelected. And she joins me now.

And thank you so much for being here.

I was looking at this resolution today. And Mace does not name McBride specifically. But she did make clear she is referencing her today, saying it was quote, Absolutely 100 percent because of McBride.

What do you make of this? What was your response to this resolution?

ZOOEY ZEPHYR, (D) MONTANA STATE HOUSE: I think we see from Congresswoman Mace, outrage politics.

We see an attack on a newly-elected Congresswoman, who is representing the same amount of people that Congresswoman Mace is representing. And they're trying to paint her, in some ways, as dangerous or a villain, when she is just using the bathroom like any other person, and like many congressional staffers have been doing in years past.

COLLINS: And McBride responded also, in that statement, talking about, hoping to have colleagues who are respectful, and said, "We should be focused on bringing down the cost of housing, health care, and child care, not manufacturing culture wars."

In two weeks, when she's up on Capitol Hill, being sworn in, and in the same hallways, how would you advise her to handle this?

ZEPHYR: Congresswoman-elect McBride has the privilege of getting to represent 500,000 Delaware -- Delawareans in the halls of Congress. And I would tell her to do what she was sent there to do, to spend every day, trying to make sure that she betters the lives of her constituents.

The other thing I would say is, what we see from the attacks, from Congresswoman Mace is day one, trying to target her. And it's important that she recognize, there is no amount of coloring within the lines that will keep someone like Congresswoman Mace, from throwing mud at her, and trying to drive outrage after outrage. So stick to your guns. Represent your constituents.

COLLINS: And Mace is clearly leaning into this. I mean, I was watching her comments, on Capitol Hill, today, when she was being asked about this. I mean, she knew, like, what the response would be to this resolution, and pushing this.

She also wants broader legislation, banning transgender women from using women's bathrooms in all federal buildings, and any schools that get federal funding.

But on this, specifically. I mean, we saw Republicans campaigning on limiting transgender rights in the 2024 race. Some of them believe that was really successful, having that culture war, as they were framing it, brought to the middle.

How do you think Democrats should handle this? What does that look like in politics, generally?

ZEPHYR: I think it's important to note that when Republicans are driving outrage politics, when they're trying to fearmonger around a minority community? To pay attention to what they're trying to get you to look away from.

When it comes to Congresswoman Mace, targeting Sarah McBride, they're trying to get you to look away from the fact that they're hiding a report on Matt Gaetz, who has been accused of sex trafficking a minor.

When it comes to Trump's attacks on transgender people, when they talk about prisoners and inmates, et cetera, they're trying to prime you for the idea that health care comes with an asterisk in this country. And this is especially poignant, when you look at Speaker Johnson saying that the goal is to repeal the ACA.

So, make sure that when they target a community, you're saying, What are they trying to get us not to look at? And here, it is them trying to figure out who they can peel off the American Dream.

COLLINS: State Representative Zooey Zephyr, I always appreciate having a thoughtful conversation. So, thank you very much.

[22:00:00]

And thank you all so much for joining us here, on a busy hour, from West Palm Beach, Florida. I'll be back here, tomorrow night, with more reporting.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP: Tonight, MAGA and masculinity. Why men are tiring of the toxic label, and where they're turning, to feel heard.