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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Musk Blasts Section Of MAGA Movement As "Contemptible Fools"; Trump Speaks With TikTok CEO After Filing Brief To Stop Ban; College Football Playoffs Head Into Quarterfinals. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 27, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Also, the NBA, college basketball and the Olympic Games.
David Berson, the President and CEO of CBS Sports, said in a statement, that Gumbel was, quote, "Beloved and respected by those of us who had the honor to call him a friend and colleague."
Greg Gumbel was 78-years-old. His family, certainly in our thoughts tonight.
And the news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
It's the MAGA versus Musk war that is escalating tonight, as Elon Musk says that parts of that movement are contemptible fools, while his far-right critics claim he is censoring them on his own platform. Whose side is Donald Trump on?
And we'll speak with a House Republican, on that critical election, for Mike Johnson, that is now just days away. By this time next week, we could know if he remains as the House Speaker.
And with the clock ticking for TikTok, I have new reporting that Trump just spoke with the company's CEO. The President-elect tonight is calling on the Supreme Court to pause the nationwide ban set to go into effect the day before he takes office.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
And tonight, that internal battle that's underway in Trump world, that we laid out for you here, last night, is only escalating even further today.
In his clash with the far-right over immigration, Elon Musk is now going after the hardliners, the very heart of the MAGA base, labeling them, just a few hours ago, as, quote, "Contemptible fools" who "must be removed from the Republican Party, root and stem."
Musk now finds himself pitted against the likes of Steve Bannon, however, Trump's former White House aide, who came out against Musk's push for H-1B visas, which allow highly-skilled foreign workers into the U.S., and has long been the lifeblood of Silicon Valley.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP ADVISER: H-1B visas? That's not what it's about. It's about taking American jobs and bringing over essentially what have become indentured servants at lower wages.
This thing's a scam by the oligarchs in Silicon Valley to basically take jobs from American citizens, give them to what become indentured servants from foreign countries, and then pay them less. Simple. To let them in to the -- to the -- through the golden door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Bannon's comments align him with people like the far- right activist Laura Loomer, who has been bashing Musk, for days now, on this, and is even accusing him of censoring her on his own platform.
She is the anti-immigrant Trump ally, who is now claiming that her blue checkmark was removed, her subscriptions were deactivated, her character limits for tweets and posts on X were limited, for what she says is, quote, "Raising concerns and speaking the truth about the technocratic takeover of our country and the White House."
Now, that was after she posted racist messages like this, saying, Our country was built by white Europeans, actually. Not third-world invaders from India.
More on what she is being -- what she is saying about why she lost those privileges on X in a moment, with Donie O'Sullivan.
But all of this began after Trump named Sriram Krishnan, a tech entrepreneur and investor who was born in India, as his Senior Policy Advisor on Artificial Intelligence. He's not an immigration adviser for Trump. But this started this entire backlash.
And it's culminated today with Elon Musk not backing off of his stance, despite the backlash that he is facing from the MAGA-right. Instead, he's writing tonight, Anyone -- of any race, creed or nationality -- who came to America and worked like hell to contribute to this country will forever have my respect.
Noticeably silent in all this infighting in his party? The President- elect himself.
My political sources tonight are:
The former Deputy Assistant to President Biden, Jamal Simmons.
Editor-in-Chief of The Dispatch, Jonah Goldberg.
And CNN Senior Correspondent, Donie O'Sullivan.
And it's great to have you all here. Jonah, I'm sure you've been watching, just like I have, as all this has been playing out, only getting worse today with really just seeing these people at each other's throats online.
What does it say to you that Trump himself, who is the king of weighing in on things online, has not done so?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE DISPATCH: Because he doesn't have a good answer to this problem, right?
He's got a very tight, small coalition, as presidents go, and there's just not a lot of giving in. I mean, it's symbolized by the fact he's got -- he's going to have, what, a two-seat maybe, with this new defection, a three-seat majority in the House?
If you have three or four or five congresspeople who agree with Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon, then you can't get any legislation done that Elon Musk wants. And so, he's stuck in this hard place, where he hasn't quite yet figured out how to get peace amongst the various Trump tribes, back together.
[21:05:00]
And it's -- I don't think this is going to be the schism that tears apart MAGA. But it is the first sign of what is probably going to be a good number of schisms and fault lines that divide people who have irreconcilable positions.
COLLINS: Yes, it is remarkable to see this. Because some people who have studied Elon Musk, for a long time, were saying that, when this friendship was blossoming, that inevitably there are major differences between Trump's -- Trump's base and them on this issue.
And Donie, just on how all of this started, was with Trump's pick for an A.I. advisory role that's going to be sitting--
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: --not in the West Wing, but in the building next door.
And this has caused such a huge issue, where Laura Loomer -- we'll get into that in a moment. But was accused of posting his address online, and sharing documents like that. Which is why, some people said was the real reason she was taken away from those things on Twitter.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I mean, I think, look, a big part of the reason that this advisor in question is being targeted is because he's not white. He's Indian.
He -- and you can just go on to X and see the vitriol around this conversation. I mean, they try and say it's about visas and everything else. But really, you don't -- do not need to scratch the surface too far, just to see the level of racism and hate and just really ugly stuff that's happening on that platform. And that is in part, right, because a lot of the white supremacists, and racists, and others, who had been suspended by Twitter for spreading hate in -- under the previous ownership, were all brought back onto the platform under Elon Musk.
And so, what you're having now is you have people who are also incentivized by the structure put in place by Musk, to have these kind of viral posts, where they pick on somebody, essentially, and try to get them to go viral.
COLLINS: And chief among them is Laura Loomer, who, for people who don't -- she's not a household name. For people who don't know her, you know, she has pushed conspiracies about 9/11, even though Trump took her to the 9/11 Memorial with him. She was on his campaign plane. We saw her getting off of it with him, earlier, during the -- during the 2024 race, not that long ago.
She is claiming Musk is censoring her. I heard from people, who are opposed to her, earlier today, saying that's not what's happening here.
What is -- what did happen with her account?
O'SULLIVAN: So, yes, Loomer has about 1.5 million followers on X. She's a big voice in the MAGA world, right? As much as I think maybe a lot of Establishment Republicans, even people who are close to Trump, would like to say that she doesn't have influence? She does, certainly in this space.
What happened over the past 24 hours is she has a verified blue badge account, which I think to -- a lot of people would just say, So what, it's a blue badge? But what that allows her to do on the platform, under Musk, is it allows two things.
One, it allows her to get revenue from the ads that are shown next to her post. So, that's a way that Musk has set up the platform, to try and monetize it, to try and make -- encourage people to post more on the platform. And also, she has paid subscribers on the platform.
We don't know how much money she was making. But oftentimes that can go into the many, many thousands every month. So, that has been taken away from her.
We haven't heard from X. We haven't heard from Musk, specifically. But she -- Musk did call her out a few times during the week, essentially calling her a troll.
COLLINS: Yes, I think he outright called her a troll, at one point.
O'SULLIVAN: He did. He did, yes.
COLLINS: Undeniably she is. I think that everyone -- if you like her, or dislike her, can agree on that.
Jamal, we're going to ask a House Republican in a moment, about his view on this and where the stance, as Jonah was referencing whether anything can get done in Congress.
We had Jared Polis, the Democratic governor of Colorado, on the program last night. He was agreeing with Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk. And I heard from people after saying, That's not going to help Elon, as he's making his case here, with Democrats agreeing with him.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR TO VP HARRIS: Yes, the problem on the Republican side, right now, the MAGA Republicans, they've got three strands.
The one strand is sort of the economically anxious, the people who kind of could go either way. They just want lower grocery prices, more affordable housing. They thought Trump might be the guy.
You've got these ideologues, like Laura Loomer, who are sort of culturally anxious, right? They don't want an America that's going to become brown, or they don't -- they're trying to preserve kind of a white Christian heterosexual culture that they believe is the core American culture and ought to be the one that exists.
Now, Laura Loomer ignores, when she says Europeans built the country, she ignores the African slaves. She ignores the Chinese immigrants who did the railroads. She ignores the people from Mexican heritage in the southwest who worked, and then Native Americans who were here first. She ignores everyone else who was in the country.
So, the problem is, they've got to figure out how to bring -- Trump has got to figure out how to hold these people together. I just don't know if it's possible.
Because at the end of the day, the only way the country grows is if we do have more immigrants who come into the country, who help populate and move the country forward, and that we make it more diverse, where we recruit and retain people from different backgrounds, into these tech industries, so that we can have an economy that can compete with everybody in the world.
COLLINS: Yes, well, and Jonah, on that front. We heard from Loomer, earlier today, saying, still pushing her position.
[21:10:00]
Obviously, as I read just a moment ago, Elon Musk is very much still advocating for his, despite the immense backlash he's been facing.
But listen to what -- to what Loomer said about what she plans to do with her position on this earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA LOOMER, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: I'm going to escalate it all the way up to President Trump.
I'm going to take it to advisers, and I'm going to take it to people I know who have been appointed to cabinet positions, and I'm going to ask them: Is this, is this the type of America that we're going to be living in? Are these the campaign promises that were made to MAGA and the American people?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, she does have a direct line to Trump, obviously. We've seen that. Trump has said he doesn't control her.
But Elon Musk is someone who's basically living at Mar-a-Lago.
And I think that is a real question of whether or not, you know, as you were saying, maybe it's not the full rift, but it's the start of one, potentially, in this scenario.
GOLDBERG: For sure. I think it's one rift among a bunch that will probably come down the pike, as we move forward. But look, I mean, it would take a heart of stone not to laugh at the situation that they've gotten themselves into.
Trump is this classic, What do I have to do to put you in this condo today, kind of salesman. And he makes promises to the Musk faction, he makes promises to the Laura Loomer faction, and a bunch of other factions in between that cannot be reconciled with each other.
And look, I'm much closer to Elon Musk on the policy issue here than I am even remotely with Laura Loomer about any of this stuff.
But one of the ironies of all this is that all of these people, across the spectrum, they rode this populist tide in, claiming that, Establishment Republicans and the Conservative Establishment and the old Reaganite crowd, the old National Review crowd, they don't know anything, and all the answers are super-easy, and we know exactly what to do.
And then it turns out, they come in, and it turns out this stuff is really complicated. H-1B program is complicated, for how you reform it? How do you expand it? What do you do about chain migration?
And the serious people were all pushed aside in favor of all these populist yahoos, from Steve Bannon on down. And now, they're the dog that caught the car, and they don't know how to do any of this policy, because they haven't done any of the legwork on it.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, Donie, with Elon Musk saying that -- he said these people are contemptible fools who need to be removed from the party.
That's a pretty notable comment coming from him.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, and look, obviously a lot of people also pointing out, saying, basically, Dude, you just kind of joined the MAGA universe pretty recently.
Well, look, I think--
SIMMONS: What? Is he being entitled?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. SIMMONS: Shocked.
O'SULLIVAN: But if I'm Musk, I'm less worried maybe about Laura Loomer than I am about who you showed earlier. Steve Bannon.
Because so much of the culture, so much of the MAGA universe flows downward from what Bannon says on that program, every day. And he has, when I say, an online army around him, he really does, of many MAGA influencers with many, many millions of followers.
And we've kind of heard this terms, internal MAGA civil war, go around a lot, the past 24 hours. But that really seems to be what's playing out.
And I will just say conservatives, Republicans have been very excited to have Musk running X, for the last two years. This is the first time we're really seeing Musk going after people, within his own camp, as it were.
SIMMONS: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes, for people who think this isn't a real thing? This is the only thing that everyone in -- that I've been talking to in Trump world, is talking about, right now.
SIMMONS: No, it is absolutely right. Listen, the Democrats have got to figure something out here too, because the Democrats are a more natural home--
COLLINS: Yes.
SIMMONS: --for some of these working-class voters, who have been in unions with many African Americans and people of color. They've got to figure out how to make an argument, that brings those people back to the fold, so they can get their coalition back together.
This coalition is like peanut butter and salmon lox. It doesn't work on the Republican side. It's just nasty.
COLLINS: OK, that is a terrible visual. Thank you so much for that.
Donie, stick around.
Everyone else, Jonah, Jamal, thank you both.
Up next. There is a new request coming in from President-elect Trump to the Supreme Court. He doesn't want that TikTok ban to go into effect the day before he takes office. I have brand-new reporting about a call Trump just had at Mar-a-Lago.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking tonight. I have brand-new reporting that President- elect Donald Trump has spoken, this evening, with the CEO of TikTok, Shou Chew.
That comes just hours after Trump asked the Supreme Court to pause an imminent ban on the app that is supposed to go into effect on January 19th, the day before Trump returns to the Oval Office.
Now, what the President-elect is doing tonight is urging the High Court to give him time, his administration, to negotiate a solution and be able to keep TikTok on Americans' phones.
CNN's Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson, is here.
And CNN's Senior Correspondent, Donie O'Sullivan, back with me.
Joey. President-elect going to the Supreme Court with this kind of a petition. One, what does that look like? And two, do they now have to answer before January 19th?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, it's a friend of the court brief. What that means in English is that the president-to-be is not a party to the litigation. He has merely put in a friend of the court brief, along with so many others, to try to influence what the court's decision is.
Look, at the end of the day, he's going to be the Leader of the Free World, and he could, in fact, have a lot to say about this case in controversy. How? He could, of course, with Congress, pass a law, banning this, right? Ban on TikTok. He could take the position that, I'm not going to enforce the ban on TikTok. And so, he's very influential in that regard.
So, what's interesting to me, Kaitlan, is that the Supreme Court never likes to make decisions that they don't have to make. And so, to the extent that there could be a negotiated resolution to this, maybe it's something that the Supreme Court says, Hey, you know what? We'll wait a second before we move forward.
What's interesting, though, is that the ban takes effect, the day before he comes -- becomes president. Oral arguments are scheduled for January 10th, right? And so, they have to act. Whether they act and how they act is the open question.
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, this comes two weeks after I had heard that Shou Chew, the CEO, was at Mar-a-Lago, having dinner with Trump -- or a meeting with him. I don't know if they had dinner. Obviously, that was a meeting that was pretty pivotal in what we're seeing tonight.
Trump is someone who's changed his mind, though, on TikTok, Donie.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, I can remember, when he told reporters on Air Force One, he was going to sign an executive order, banning the app in the U.S., the last time he was president. This is what he's saying these days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: We'll take a look at TikTok. You know, I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok, because I won youth by 34 points. And there are those that say that TikTok has something to do with that.
We -- we did go on TikTok, and we had a great response with billions of views, billions and billions of views. Maybe we got to keep this sucker around a little while, you know?
CROWD: Yes.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What is it that's behind -- I mean, maybe he just told us.
O'SULLIVAN: There you go.
COLLINS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: I mean, look, what does Trump like? We know he likes ratings.
And what TikTok did, over the summer, was they hired some Republican lobbyists. And they also, through the media, pushed out these numbers, which we weren't able to independently vet, which basically said, Trump, you are killing it. People love pro-Trump content on TikTok.
And that's, I think, really, when you started to see Trump's tone start to change a lot, over the past year, on this.
And one thing, which Trump -- back to the point of ratings. He described himself in this brief to the -- to the Supreme Court, he described himself as one of the most powerful, prolific and influential users of social media in history.
Again, kind of TikTok playing into that.
COLLINS: It is -- that is true. It's really true.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, well, also, yes.
COLLINS: Joey, though, on this point, though, there is a serious issue at the heart of this.
JACKSON: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, a lot of House Republicans voted to pass an issue, pass this ban, forcing the parent company to sell TikTok, because they have national security issues. I mean, this goes--
JACKSON: Yes.
COLLINS: --this is diametrically opposed to what the Biden DOJ is arguing in court.
JACKSON: So, yes, that's the core question, right? The core question is national security. To what extent does this app really impair national security, manipulate people and get information about people. And to what extent does that overcome a First Amendment right? You have 170 million users.
But again, Kaitlan, I think the question for me, and why I think they need to, that is the Supreme Court, take this seriously, the pause, is because they do not like to wade into issues that could be otherwise resolved without them tinkering on constitutional margins.
So, what will Trump do, ultimately? If the Supreme Court does nothing, and the ban goes in effect? He could say, Listen, I'm not going to enforce it.
COLLINS: But you think that they'll pause it?
JACKSON: I think that it would be wise to do so, right? Because it does raise significant constitutional questions, and because it could be subject and ripe for negotiated resolution, or through congressional action with a repeal, now that all houses, both houses are Republican, of just banning the law. So, yes.
COLLINS: Joey Jackson. Donie O'Sullivan. We will see what happens in the coming weeks.
Meanwhile, an important election is right around the corner, a different one. Mike Johnson potentially on thin ice with some of his members coming out and questioning him. Will the New Year usher in a new House Speaker? We'll talk to a House Republican, right after this.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: One week from today, the new Congress will return to Washington. Major questions are looming. First among them, who is going to be leading the House.
After that messy spending battle that we covered, the current Speaker, Mike Johnson, is facing some skepticism from his own party, about whether or not he should keep his job.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANDY HARRIS (R-MD): We do need to consider whether, if we're going to advance Mr. Trump's agenda, whether the current leadership is what we need.
REP. SCOTT PERRY (R-PA): I'm going to keep my options open. I want to have a conversation with Mike. I don't know where this is going right now. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My congressional source tonight is New York Republican congressman, Mike Lawler.
Congressman, you just heard from some of your colleagues there. Do you think Mike Johnson will be able to comfortably win the floor vote for speaker, that's happening a week from today?
REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Yes.
Look, ultimately, my colleagues are going to have to recognize that if we want any chance of enacting the legislation that the American people entrusted us with, with a House Republican majority, we're going to need to work together.
And we cannot go through another speaker battle, as we did at the beginning of last Congress, or as we did when Matt Gaetz teamed up with the Democrats, and seven Republicans, to remove Kevin McCarthy and throw the House into turmoil.
Donald Trump's election needs to be certified on January 6th. You can't do that without a speaker.
I think Mike Johnson has done a great job. It's a challenge, obviously, when you have such a tight margin. Very little room for error. But what my colleagues have to recognize here is there's no Pyrrhic victories in politics. It's 50 plus one. We have, by any calculus, a one-seat majority, with three impending vacancies.
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: So, the fact is, we're all going to need to work together here.
COLLINS: Well, and that speaker's race is next Friday. January 6th, the presidential certification, formalizing Trump's victory is that next Monday. I mean, if there is not a House Speaker elected by then, is it just complete chaos? I mean, what does that look like?
LAWLER: Look, you can't do anything in the House, as we saw with the 15 rounds with Kevin McCarthy, and then with the motion to vacate. You cannot do anything until you elect a speaker. So, from my vantage point, that would be the height of stupidity to get into a protracted speaker battle.
[21:30:00]
Mike Johnson won the vote, within the Conference, to serve another term as speaker. He has worked tirelessly to help give us this majority.
And look, we all have our perspectives, our points of views. There's going to be times where we're frustrated by decisions that are being made. But the fact is, that we have to work together, that there is no other recourse here. And if we haven't learned anything from the 118th Congress, it should be that we cannot go through another speaker battle.
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, once you have a speaker, Congress is going to need to raise the debt ceiling. Trump wanted this done before he took office. He did not get that, during that spending battle that was playing out, earlier this month.
Is there a plan to, within the GOP conference, to handle that with January?
LAWLER: Well, there's two ways to deal with this. One is through reconciliation. And one is suspending the debt ceiling, a date certain. Obviously, doing that would require 60 votes in the Senate. Through reconciliation, it requires a simple majority.
So, we're going to have to work through this. To me, this is kind of a somewhat dumb argument about the debt ceiling. It's about prior debts incurred. And obviously, we have to pay our debts, just as every American has to pay down their credit card.
The fact is, if we want to tackle our deficits and long-term debt, it requires us to rein in federal spending. It requires us to increase revenues to the federal government. And that's not just by as Democrats often want to do, raising taxes. You have to grow the economy and have an economy that is -- that is actually producing more revenue.
So, this is obviously going to be a big focus, in this 119th Congress, with the tax bill coming due, reining in the size and scope of the federal government--
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: --increasing domestic production of energy, securing the border and stopping this massive influx of illegal immigration. You see states, like New York, spending billions of dollars on illegal immigrants.
So, there's a lot to do, and you can't do any of it unless you have a speaker.
COLLINS: But on reconciliation--
LAWLER: So this is going to be, obviously, critical.
COLLINS: Can I ask you about that? Because John Thune, who is the incoming Majority Leader in the Senate, noted that -- he said, We're going to have more limitations on what we'd be able to like to use reconciliation for, than our House colleagues would like.
Obviously, reconciliation has never been used to solve the debt ceiling issue. I mean, is there an active plan being discussed, within the GOP, right now, on what to do, on an issue that the Treasury secretary said today, is coming, in just a few weeks from now?
LAWLER: Yes. And obviously, I'm not going to get ahead of it. But that is something that's going to have to be addressed very quickly. The date on the debt ceiling is the first week of January. But based on quote-unquote, extraordinary measures, the Treasury can get it a few months after that. But the bottom line is, this is something we're going to have to deal with.
The reason, Democrats were so upset about the debt ceiling being thrown into the mix on the CR, was because ultimately they want to use it as leverage in a negotiation.
So, there's two ways to deal with this. One is through reconciliation, which would not really require Democrat participation in the Senate. The other, obviously would, if you have to rely on 60 votes, and you don't do it through reconciliation.
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: So, I think what Senate Majority Leader Thune is saying there, obviously the Senate parliamentarian is going to put restrictions on what can and cannot be included, as part of reconciliation, which is why every Republican vote is going to matter, especially with such a tight margin in the House.
COLLINS: Yes, yes. We'll see how that battle plays out.
But let me ask you about something that's going on that we've been covering here at THE SOURCE.
We're witnessing basically this internal war, within your party, between Elon Musk, and Vivek Ramaswamy, and the further right, over whether or not to increase visas for high-skilled workers, this issue that was brought up. Elon Musk is in support of it. You've seen others come out and incredibly critical of him, over the last 48 hours or so, for his argument that he's still articulating, even tonight, I should note.
Do you find yourself agreeing more with the Elon Musks of the world or the Laura Loomer side on this issue?
LAWLER: Look, I've been very clear about this, during my time in Congress. We have a population decline, and we have a workforce shortage.
[21:35:00]
The path forward is, number one, secure the border and stop the influx of illegal immigration. Number two, to actually fix the legal immigration system, so that we can bring people to the United States who want to be here, who want to contribute to our economy, to our culture, to our communities. And to do so, legally.
The fact is, we have a shortage of doctors, nurses, engineers, home health aides, teachers, ag workers, construction workers, et cetera. So long-term, we need immigration.
And the reality is that immigration has been vital to the United States, over 250 years. The reason that our economy has been so vibrant, the reason that we have been able to advance in so many ways, is in part, because immigrants want to come to this country, and contribute to our economy.
So, this is obviously a long-running situation. We have not had immigration reform in 38 years.
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: The year I was born, 1986.
So, we have to deal with this. But I think the biggest impediment, right now, obviously, is the crisis at our border. And until people feel confident that we have secured our border, that we have stopped this massive influx, it's going to be hard to get people to agree on--
COLLINS: OK. But--
LAWLER: --fixing our legal immigration system.
COLLINS: That's not the argument that the far-right is making. They're not saying, OK, we need to fix this, this is a huge issue, and then we'll talk about this. They're saying, No, there should not be carve- outs in our immigration views for high-skilled foreign workers. They're taking Americans' jobs. That's what's being articulated online.
But you're saying, you agree more with Elon Musk, who's saying that cap should be raised.
LAWLER: No, what--
COLLINS: And this is--
LAWLER: Right.
COLLINS: This should be something that the U.S. is welcoming.
But let me ask you, because Vivek Ramaswamy who is--
LAWLER: This is not something that can be -- yes. Kaitlan, I'll just make a point. This is not something that can be done piecemeal. You can't. And I agree with the sentiment that you can't just carve out one little thing and just address that.
We have a broad problem with our immigration system. And it's not just about high-skilled, highly-educated labor coming to the United States for tech jobs, for instance.
This is an immigration system that is fundamentally broken. I've said it many times. My wife is an immigrant. I've been through this system. It needs to be fixed, wholesale. And I think most Republicans agree. They're not against immigration. But they don't want a piecemeal fix, and they also don't want changes, unless we are actually securing the border. That is the bigger contract--
(CROSSTALK) COLLINS: But do you think the cap should be expanded for that?
LAWLER: Long-term, I do. Because we -- as I said, we have a shortage of workers. We also have a population decline. We're not producing as many children today, as we were just a few decades ago. I think the number's 1.67 or so children per American family. So we have to, obviously, address a long-term population decline. We also have to address a workforce shortage.
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: The only way you're actually going to be able to do that, is if you have a legal immigration system that works.
COLLINS: But Mike, my question, this is not that -- but that's again, not what Laura Loomer, and others, on the far-right are articulating. They're just saying, No, the cap not only should not be expanded.
LAWLER: Yes, I'm -- I don't -- I don't--
COLLINS: They're saying that it shouldn't go anywhere.
I mean, the question is, who has a better pulse on MAGA?
LAWLER: Yes, I don't accept -- I don't accept--
COLLINS: Is it Elon Musk? Or is it someone like a Laura Loomer, and those who are arguing with him right now, online?
LAWLER: Look, obviously, there's a lot of different opinions within the party.
I subscribe, just as I outlined, the fact that A, we need to secure the border. B, we need to actually fix the legal immigration system. I do think you need to lift the caps. To me, I don't care where somebody comes from. Where they come from is irrelevant. The question is, are they filling the economic needs of the country.
And with respect to Americans and American jobs. The fact is, we have to revamp our education system. We need a system that is actually producing more engineers, that is producing the workforce that is required today. And the fact is, we need more vocational skills. We need folks going to vocational schools.
The K through 12 system shouldn't just be a pipeline to college. It should be a pipeline to a job. And that's what our focus has to be, both from an immigration standpoint, and from an education standpoint--
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: --to have the workforce that we need.
COLLINS: But on this divide? I mean, you're obviously making a nuanced argument about the view of this. But what we're saying -- you know, someone posted today and said, MAGA is taking a page from Democrats on how to lose elections while feeling good about themselves.
Elon Musk responded, Yes. And those contemptible fools must be removed from the Republican Party, root and stem.
Is that a sentiment that you agree with?
LAWLER: Look, I'll let others speak for themselves.
[21:40:00]
My ultimate point is that our immigration system needs to be fixed. We do need immigrants in this country. We do need skilled labor. We also need to fill a broad spectrum of jobs, which means we need to revamp our education system, in the United States, to make for -- make sure that Americans are filling these jobs, and have the skills needed to do so.
But look, at the end of the day, to me, the idea that you would be against immigration, wholesale, is wrong. I don't subscribe to that. As I said, my wife is an immigrant. I'm Irish-Italian, from New York. I mean, my family came here through Ellis Island, over a 100 years ago. So, I understand the importance of immigration.
I do think there's obviously a very reasonable discussion to have on this. I don't think that some of the objections that people raise are wrong. But you do have to have a compromise here, and you do have to actually have an immigration system that works.
Otherwise, we have what we're currently dealing with--
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: --which is 10.5 million migrants flooding into the country without work authorization, cities and states spending billions of dollars. That doesn't work. So, we should actually want an immigration system that functions correctly.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, it's quite a civil war between Republicans on this issue. We'll see what happens.
Congressman Mike Lawler. Nothing new for your party, as you know. Thank you so much for your time.
LAWLER: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Tonight, there is excitement and maybe a bit of anxiety building across the nation, as the next round of college football playoffs are approaching. Our inside source, Paul Finebaum, is here with his thoughts next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: The countdown is on for the next round of the college football playoffs, with perhaps some upsets, or hopefully at least some competitive games in store.
Eight teams remain in the new, expanded playoff format that is underway this year. And with the quarter finals set to begin on New Year's Eve, the excitement has been building, as fans from South Bend to Eugene, Boise to Austin, everywhere in between, are weighing in with their predictions and also their criticisms.
The man himself, when it comes to college football, is my source tonight. ESPN's Paul Finebaum.
And it's great to have you here, Paul.
I mean, obviously, the opening round was a lot of blowouts. People did not love it. Do you think the games are going to get more competitive from here on out? What are your expectations for next week?
PAUL FINEBAUM, COLLEGE FOOTBALL ANALYST, ESPN: No doubt. The first round was just abominable. I suffered through one of the games up- close in Austin. The rest of them were equally bad. But this is a -- two of the games, this weekend -- next week, I should say, could be a little bit better.
The Ohio State-Oregon game in the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day is really epic. We may very well be watching the two best teams in the country. They played on October 12th in Eugene, and Oregon won by one. In the nightcap in the Sugar Bowl, Georgia and Notre Dame is equal to that.
The other two, I don't think, are going to be a whole lot different than what we saw last week. And that's obviously Boise State and Penn State. And Arizona State and Texas. The two favorites, Penn State and Texas should win those easily.
But this is something new. Not to soft-pedal it. But we've never had a 12-team playoff before. And we used to only have two teams. And then 10 years ago, we went to four. And now, we're at 12. So, it's not a whole lot different than the NFL wild card round, where you see a lot of blowouts as well.
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, so many questions about whether or not it changes the committee's approach, next season, and what that looks like.
But just on college football, overall. Paul, I think I've told you this before. When I was growing up in junior high, and my dad would pick me up from school. Everyone else was listening to, like, the top 20 music songs. I was listening to "The Paul Finebaum Show" with my dad.
And I asked him tonight, if he had a question for you. He said he did. He wants to know how you see the landscape of college football changing, moving forward, and what it'll look like in five years, if school allegiance and the kind of commitment that we've seen before, are a thing of the past with the NIL situation.
FINEBAUM: Number one, I'm a big fan of your dad for subjecting you to something great as a youngster.
I am not optimistic, Kaitlan. I know that in a position like I have, where you -- we want the game to be great? We are possibly at a tipping point.
What I mean by that is, players are not only getting huge sums of money to go to school. Now, at the end of the first year, or the second year, the third year, whatever year it is, they're now holding the schools hostage for even more money. And we're talking $3 million, $4 million from the very top players.
SMU, which made the playoffs this year, nearly 40 years ago, was put out of business. They were given the death penalty for less than what is going on, right now, in college football.
And what the college administrators are doing, which also sounds crazy, is they need Congress to bail them out. I mean, where have you ever heard something like that before? And it's possible, with the Republicans in charge, and Donald Trump at the helm, it may -- it may actually go through. Where in a split Congress, it would not have.
But they need protection, because they've done such a poor job. The people that run college athletics have literally been asleep at the wheel for a very long time.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see. I mean, counting on Congress is obviously not always reliable.
[21:50:00]
Before we go, I do want to ask you. Because Coach Saban, obviously a personal favorite of mine, has responded to Shane Gillis, the comedian, and a joke that he made about his recruiting tactics, when he accused him of paying players.
Listen to what Saban had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAT MCAFEE, AMERICAN SPORTS ANALYST: You called him a cheater earlier.
SHANE GILLIS, COMEDIAN AND ACTOR: I was just joking around. I don't think the SEC paid players, ever.
MCAFEE: Period. Right?
GILLIS: No, I'm joking. Are we not -- is this not a fun show?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. No. No fun.
GILLIS: Is this a serious show?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Serious football. GILLIS: Alabama Jones is very serious.
NICK SABAN, AMERICAN FOOTBALL COACH: I understand he's a comedian. Obviously, he's much more intimidated by J.J. Watt than he was by me, which is understandable. And I guess you've got to live with it.
He was trying to be funny, which I get it. And my daughter, Kristen, loves him. So, that's kind of -- soothe the soul, a little bit, that somebody in our family likes the guy.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You obviously have covered Coach Saban. You know him. What are your thoughts on what he had to say?
FINEBAUM: Yes, what's remarkable, Kaitlan, is that he is very funny on TV. But having spent a couple of days in Alabama, this week, for Christmas, everyone I ran into would prefer to see him back as the head coach, which isn't going to happen. But the void that he left, nearly a year ago, it's incalculable.
He's done a really good job. He's, in many ways, the voice of college football on ESPN. But it still seems very different for me, having covered him at LSU, and 17 years in Alabama, which really changed your life as a young kid, and an Alabama fan, and changed my life as a broadcaster. It is still strange, trying to get used to him doing something other than winning national championships.
COLLINS: Yes, not seeing him run out of that tunnel, I'm not sure I'll ever get used to it.
Paul Finebaum, I always love having you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us.
FINEBAUM: Always a pleasure. Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And the time has also come for New Year's resolutions, as we approach the games, and New Year's Eve. Have you made yours yet? We have someone here, who is going to help us make the changes that we want. And also, how do you stick to them? That's up next.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: You're looking at a Times -- live picture of Times Square, here in New York City. That is where the final preparations are underway for the annual New Year's Eve celebration. Four days from now, thousands of people will be packed in there to see the ball drop at midnight.
And of course, with the New Year come New Year's resolutions. My next source has some tips to help make them stick.
Dan Harris is the host of the "10% Happier" podcast, and has a newsletter available at danharris.com, that everyone should read.
You said, evolution is to blame for when people make resolutions, but don't stick with them, past January.
DAN HARRIS, HOST, "10% HAPPIER" PODCAST: Which is actually the most common thing, people don't make it past January. And evolution is to blame. Natural selection wired us to be really good at short-term wins like finding food or avoiding threats, and not good at the long-term, kind of slow, patient work of booting up a habit. So that's the bad news.
The good news is, if you're beating yourself up for not being quote- unquote, good at this, you don't have to blame yourself. It's actually the fault of evolution.
And the other cool thing is that there's now a lot of research that shows that there are simple ways to actually get you better at this, to make you better at this.
COLLINS: Like, what is a way that could make you stick? I mean, a lot of people have the same resolutions, it seems like, every year. Whether it's being better with money, being healthier, sleeping more. I mean, what does that -- what are those ways to be better about it?
HARRIS: Well, the first thing is to pick the right resolution. And if your resolution is big and vague, like, I want to get fit? Or, I want to be more of a reader? That kind of sets you up for failure.
What you want is something specific, like, I'm going to exercise three times a week. Or, I'm going to read a book a month.
COLLINS: OK, because you're looking -- these are your resolutions tips about picking the right one, making it easy, being flexible.
We pulled our team up for their resolutions. The most common ones were getting more sleep and drinking more water. Mine is to go to Brooklyn more often, because I've lived in New York for two years, and I don't go to Brooklyn that much. So, I want to, like, try it more.
HARRIS: So, that sounds manageable. But you might want to tweak it to say, like, I want--
COLLINS: And very specific.
HARRIS: It is a bespoke resolution. There's no question about that. But you might want to say, I want to go to Brooklyn once a quarter, or something like that, so you've got something specific and achievable.
COLLINS: Yes. Do you have any resolutions with yours?
HARRIS: Mine are actually a violation of my own rule, because they're pretty vague. One is, I want to get better at not overeating when I'm bored.
And another is, and this is super-vague, is I want to get better at really, moment to moment, enjoying my life, having more fun. I'm 53. The pre-game is definitely over. And I really want to infuse everything I'm doing with the sense of, Wow, I'm glad I get to do this.
COLLINS: And how do you do that? How do you measure something that is so immeasurable, like that?
HARRIS: I think it's -- that's why it's probably a terrible resolution to set. But I think there are very specific -- if I wanted to get more specific about it, it'd be goals like having gratitude, taking a gratitude break three times a day, getting very specific. And I also want to pick up on something on that list, about making it easy.
If you're setting a resolution, one of the big, big favors you can do for yourself is to start really small. A lot of people ask me, how to start a meditation habit, since I've written a few books on it. And I often say, Start with one minute. One minute.
Because it can help you get some wins up on the board, and then you've got momentum, and you're actually like, hacking the evolutionary brain, because you're giving it short-term wins. And over time, that can add up to big gains.
COLLINS: Because often people probably try to pick something, that's really ambitious, to tell people, This is my resolution, I'm going to do this.
HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: And it's obviously much harder to actually achieve that.
HARRIS: Absolutely. You want it to be specific. But I do think it's a good idea to tell people. One of my -- one of my tips that was put up on the board there was to make it a team sport. If you do it with other people, or if you tell them, that can create a sense of -- sorry.
COLLINS: Go ahead.
HARRIS: Some accountability.
COLLINS: Yes.
HARRIS: And then you're more likely to do it.
COLLINS: Yes, that's really interesting in terms of actually telling people is helpful in that sense, and talking about it, saying it out loud.
HARRIS: Yes. And doing it with other people.
COLLINS: Yes, and having someone who's like an accountability partner, or something.
HARRIS: And it makes it more fun, and you get support and enthusiasm from those other people.
COLLINS: OK.
[22:00:00]
HARRIS: And there's research to show that that really works.
COLLINS: All right.
HARRIS: So, join a book club, for example, or meditate with other people, or join a running club. These are all really evidence-based ways to make the resolution stick.
COLLINS: I love it. We'll see if they stick. We'll check in with yours as well.
HARRIS: Enjoy Brooklyn.
COLLINS: Dan Harris, great to have you. Thank you so much, as always.
Thank you all for joining us, tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
