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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Biden Warns An "Oligarchy Is Taking Shape In America"; Israel & Hamas Agree To Gaza Ceasefire-Hostage Deal; Sen. Rubio Defends NATO. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 15, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --covering these fires, for this past week, and its ongoing aftermath. They've been away from their kids and families, during these difficult days. And it's an honor to work alongside all of you.
It's also an honor to witness the firefighters and law enforcement officers, who have come here, from all over, and are still, right now, working around the clock.
We've seen a lot of terrible things here. But we've also seen the best in our fellow human beings. Neighbors helping neighbors. Citizens, standing up for their homes and their blocks and their communities.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.
President Biden's parting message to the nation, after half a century in public service, and just five days left as President. His warning to Americans tonight about what he calls an oligarchy taking shape, here in America.
And there's new details this evening about that ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, how soon dozens of hostages could be freed, including two Americans.
And there were fireworks here, on Capitol Hill today, as President Trump's pick for Attorney General threw down with Democrats, over loyalty to Trump and upholding the rule of law.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Good evening from Washington. Not far from where I'm standing right now, President Biden, in his final farewell address from the Oval Office, delivered a stunning warning to the nation, on his way out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I want to warn the country of some things that give me great concern. And this is a dangerous -- and that's the dangerous concentration of power in the hands of a very few ultrawealthy people, and the dangerous consequences if their abuse of power is left unchecked.
Today, an oligarchy is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms and a fair shot for everyone to get ahead.
I'm equally concerned about the potential rise of a tech-industrial complex that could pose real dangers for our country as well. Americans are being buried under an avalanche of misinformation and disinformation, enabling the abuse of power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Even before he stopped speaking, the question on everyone's mind, I think, who was watching, Is he talking about anyone in particular there? Because it sure sounded like he was.
That parting shot, I should note, came amid an avalanche of headlines, tonight, before the President walked into the Oval Office. He was listing his accomplishments, and started by hailing that ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. Finally, a turn in this war that has claimed so many innocent lives, and consumed so much of the end of Biden's presidency.
It's expected to take effect on Sunday, Biden's final full day in office, and it's a deal that is set to free dozens of hostages held in Gaza, including two Americans, right away.
I want to get straight to CNN's Van Jones, because we haven't heard from you, Van, yet, on that farewell address, which was, I think, going into it, people thought it was going to just be the standard fare.
But that warning there, about the dangers of power and wealth left unchecked in America, seemed to be a clear reference to his successor's inner circle.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, it will, I think, ring true for a lot of people.
We are in an unprecedented situation. There are more than a dozen billionaires, who are going to be joining the Trump administration. That's never happened before.
You have the richest man in the world, Elon Musk, who has declared himself to be first buddy, which is not in our Constitution, in this -- on meetings with like, world leaders.
You have Mark Zuckerberg, who has changed his entire policy to fit in.
What is happening? Four years ago, the Democratic Party had the White House, it had the Senate, they had the House, it had the popular vote, and it had Silicon Valley on its side.
Over the past four years, the Democratic Party has lost the House, lost the Senate, lost the White House, lost the popular vote, and now has lost Silicon Valley, which means the billionaires are on the other side of the table.
And I think part of what Biden was concerned about, which got him in trouble with Silicon Valley in the first place, was that you're talking about literally someone, who could become a trillionaire, sitting next to the President of the United States.
That attitude on the part of the Biden administration, Is there something going wrong in Silicon Valley? It has too much power, too little regulation, too little social conscience. That attitude from Biden provoked Silicon Valley to jump on the other side of the table. Democrats are now in real trouble.
But on his way out, he's pointing out that this particular conglomeration of power is unprecedented, and it can be very, very dangerous.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, we heard him call Meta's decision to stop having fact-checkers, and just let users basically do it, shameful.
[21:05:00]
But tonight, when he -- when he was clearly referencing that, he called it the tech-industrial complex, and said, Americans are being buried under what the President described as an avalanche of misinformation.
I mean, Mark Zuckerberg, Meta's donating a million dollars to Trump's inauguration, along with a lot of other folks. But he's also coming to the inauguration, next Monday, and we're told is going to have, prime seating for that inauguration.
JONES: Look, if Mark Zuckerberg wants to give to the president, wants to show up, that's just it's -- it's certainly he can do that as a patriot, as a citizen.
The problem is that it sends a certain signal that Facebook and other companies that had at least it tried to push back on hate speech, tried to push back on racist, sexist, horrific comments, is now going to be indifferent to that. And if Facebook becomes like Twitter or X, which has now become just a swamp of hatred, that's bad for America.
So, I think it's good that Zuckerberg wants to participate, wants to be a friend to the president. That's not a problem in America. The problem is when you start changing corporate policy, to follow political policy, to curry favor for possible political gain? That starts to look like what the President was describing, an oligarchy, a plutocracy.
Don't forget. Donald Trump sometimes says a lot of affectionate words about Putin. Well, why is Putin so powerful? He's partly powerful because he's made sure that his friends have become obscenely rich, obscenely wealthy.
There is a playbook here that is not an American playbook. It is a foreign playbook. And as you begin to see elements of that? I'm not saying that's happening. But you begin to see elements of that? Some people are getting very, very concerned. Joe Biden was speaking for those people tonight.
COLLINS: Van Jones, thank you for your insights.
And we've also got a source here, who is one of -- holds President Biden's former Senate seat, but also one of his closest allies on Capitol Hill. Senator Chris Coons of Delaware.
I was going to ask you about Biden's just address overall, reflecting on his years in service as they're coming to an end, as he's leaving the White House. But what did you make of his warning there, on the way out the door?
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Well, first, he began his address with good news, as was referenced, that there is a hostage deal, that there's going to be a ceasefire in Gaza, the release of hostages, the delivery of humanitarian relief, something that President Biden, and his Special Envoy, and his senior leadership, have worked incredibly hard on, over many months, since he first laid out the plan for this in May.
There's also positives in that the Special Envoy for the Middle East of the Trump administration has been in the room, for the last couple of days, to make sure that the implementation of this peace deal continues. There isn't some big drop-off between the two administrations.
But for his farewell address, he did focus on concerns about the concentration of power, and whether or not the guardrails built into our system will hold.
Earlier today, I was at the confirmation hearing for Pam Bondi, who will be nominated by President-elect Trump to be the next attorney general. And the core question I wanted her to answer was, If the President should ever direct you to do something, unethical or illegal, what will you do? Will you refuse? If he continues, will you resign? And she wouldn't answer that question. She said, That's hypothetical.
And I said, You might want to ask former Attorney General Bill Barr, or former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, both of whom got crosswise with the President, did things he didn't approve of, didn't follow orders that he gave them, and he fired them.
COLLINS: Yes, and Bill Barr, I should note, voted for Trump, though, in this election.
COONS: Yes.
COLLINS: He told us that, when he was sitting in that seat.
I want to ask you about the agreement, the ceasefire and hostage release.
But since you're talking about Pam Bondi. When you were questioning her today, so those questions -- her answers weren't sufficient, in your view? COONS: So the first two questions I asked, I got answers that were very encouraging to me.
COLLINS: Talked about special counsels, you talked about also--
COONS: Who is your client, as Attorney General? The Constitution and the people of the United States.
Can Donald Trump run for a third term as a matter of constitutional law? No.
It was the third question, where I said, What would you do if ordered to do something illegal or unethical? And she said, That's a hypothetical, I won't answer it. I had to say, It's not a hypothetical.
COLLINS: Does that affect whether or not you'll vote for her?
COONS: It does. And I'm going to go back, and look at the transcript of the hearing. I'm going to reach out to her, and see if we can get any further clarification.
But for me, that's a critical question. Will she stand up, if the situation calls on it, and prove the independence of the Department of Justice is more important than loyalty to a candidate she strongly supported? But a key guardrail in our system is that the FBI and the DOJ are independent.
COLLINS: So, are you a yes or a no right now? Or you haven't decided?
COONS: I'm a no, right now. But I am still--
COLLINS: OK.
COONS: --I'm going to go back and review the transcript. I am trying to be fair, and I'm trying to give her a reasonable shot at earning my vote. But I was not satisfied by the end of today's hearing.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: And on that Middle East deal. President Biden spoke with Prime Minister, hours before he came and gave this speech tonight. It was a warm call, we were told. They've had some not so warm calls.
COONS: Yes.
COLLINS: Trump is saying that this deal only could have happened if he won. Given Biden himself acknowledged this was roughly the same deal that was on the table, back in May, do you agree with that? Or how do you see that?
COONS: Look, I think Joe Biden and his core team, President Biden deserves credit, for months and months of disciplined, determined effort to get this deal done.
Whether or not it was the election of Trump that was required to get Netanyahu to ultimately agree to a deal? I think we'll let history debate.
COLLINS: Do you have faith in the Trump administration? Because they're really going to be the ones implementing this deal--
COONS: They are.
COLLINS: --and what this is going to look like. And we've heard from the State Department, praising the Trump team for how they worked together. I mean, Biden himself said they worked together as one team.
COONS: They did.
COLLINS: You think they can--
COONS: They've worked well.
COLLINS: --they can carry it out?
COONS: And I think the handoff is going well, so far. For example, the conversations between Jake Sullivan, the current National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, the incoming National Security Advisor, with regards to the situation in Lebanon, or in Iran, or in with the Houthis across the Middle East, generally going well. We are stronger, when our adversaries see that there aren't huge gulfs, between one administration and the next.
One of the core unanswered questions is, what's going to happen with Ukraine? One of the key pieces of President Biden's legacy is that he rallied more than 50 countries, around the world, to come to Ukraine's defense, and push back against Russian aggression.
COLLINS: Yes, and we saw Senator Marco Rubio testifying about that today. We're going to share some of that today. He's Trump's candidate for Secretary of State, obviously.
But on that moment tonight, and seeing Joe Biden at the Resolute Desk, delivering his final address from there, final primetime farewell address. In the room was the first lady, Jill Biden, you can see her there. And also, Vice President Harris, the second gentleman, Doug Emhoff, seated there, listening to that.
He gave a shout-out to Harris, and likened her to family, and was saying how much that means to him. That's obviously notable, because there's been some tension between them, given how the 2024 race was shaking out.
But on Jill Biden, and looking at this, she had a quote today, to The Washington Post, about Nancy Pelosi's role, and Biden getting out of the race. And she said, quote, We were friends for 50 years. Imagining she was using her teacher's voice, she said, quote, It was disappointing.
You know that Jill Biden is very careful with how she uses her words. What did you make of that moment?
COONS: Well, it's the first I'm hearing of it. But what I -- what I make of it is that she may well have wished that Speaker Pelosi had engaged directly with them, rather than orchestrating a campaign, to try and get President Biden to step down from the race.
Ultimately, it was the right thing for him to do, for his candidacy, for the country, for the party. But I do think there were some hard feelings
about how that happened.
At the end of the day, what matters most is that today, tonight, in that speech, and in our conversation, I'm reflecting on the remarkable things that President Biden got done.
He ran on bipartisanship. He spoke at his inauguration, about working across the aisle. There were lots of folks, who thought he wouldn't be able to get much done, in a badly-divided Congress, inaugurated just two weeks after January 6th.
And in the end, he signed into law, bipartisan bills that did more for infrastructure, gun safety, investing in veterans, rebuilding manufacturing, than any president in decades. It's a really strong record of accomplishment.
COLLINS: He's leaving office despite that, with the -- an approval rating that matches when it was at its lowest. It's actually pretty close to what Trump's was after January 6th, when he was leaving office.
Numbers go up and down.
COONS: Yes.
COLLINS: Approval ratings, as you know very well, as a politician.
But do you think that that will -- that record will be viewed differently, in the years and decades to come?
COONS: Absolutely. I think his record will be viewed more and more positively as the impact of what he's done, and as the reflection of time makes possible a clear-eyed view.
Every national leader around the world has been sinking in the polls, and approval ratings, since the pandemic. Every American president, from Bill Clinton on, has left with a lower approval rating than they started.
What I think history will look at is his hard work to stabilize our country, make it safer and stronger, at home and abroad, and his remarkable record of legislative accomplishment.
When Harry Truman left office, his approval ratings were not very strong. Over time, people have seen more and more of the critical decisions he made, the ways he laid the foundation, for decades, of security and prosperity. And I think the same will be true with Joe Biden.
COLLINS: Senator Chris Coons. Thank you for joining us, tonight. COONS: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Great to have one of the closest confidants of President Biden, here for that speech.
Up next. We have breaking new details on that ceasefire and hostage deal that was struck between Israel and Hamas. It is a fascinating inside story, on what the Senator was just referencing there, how the Biden and Trump team worked together to get the deal done.
[21:15:00]
Also tonight, in California, as firefighters are making progress, battling those flames, in Los Angeles, a new fire has erupted, with officials warning residents they're not out of the woods yet. We're live, on the ground, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, CNN has new behind-the-scenes reporting on how the Biden and Trump teams worked together, to secure the Gaza ceasefire and hostage deal.
Our sources say it all began during that Oval Office meeting that happened in November, after Trump won the election. The two men agreed there to join forces, despite their differences, to get a deal done before Inauguration Day.
[21:20:00]
Brett McGurk, who is Biden's longtime Middle East negotiator, has worked alongside Trump's incoming Middle East envoy, Steve Witkoff, on this.
You'll remember, it was Witkoff, who you are seeing there on the right side of your screen, who leaned on the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, during what was later described as a tense meeting in recent days.
Right now, this ceasefire is expected to begin this Sunday, providing a desperately-needed reprieve to the Palestinian civilians, who have endured 15 months of war, and also for the hostages who have been held by Hamas for 15 months now.
My source tonight is Beth Sanner, the former Deputy Director of National Intelligence.
And Beth, this deal, as President Biden was laying it out earlier, it's the release of 32 hostages, over the next 42 days or so. There's several parts of this. But essentially, that would be in exchange for Palestinian prisoners being held in Israel, and also the cessation of the actual fighting that's been happening.
BETH SANNER, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right.
COLLINS: What stood out to you from how this agreement finally came together, even though it's been talked about since last May.
SANNER: Right. I mean, I really think that as Americans, we should be kind of proud about how this turned out, because it was these two bitter rivals agreeing to come together, and have their teams work hand in glove.
And when you think about, way back in history, the Iran hostage deal, which is like the most parallel we have. And the story there is that Reagan went to the Iranians, and said, Don't give up those hostages in the last few deal -- days of the Carter administration. Let me have the credit.
This is so different, right? And so, I think both of them deserve a lot of credit, and both of their teams do.
COLLINS: And also, I mean, in the political sense, Trump making the argument, he said it wouldn't have happened had he not become president. But there was credit given, a lot of it, to Steve Witkoff, for his role in this.
SANNER: Yes.
COLLINS: And seeing, you know, Trump saying that this could only happen.
Biden was asked about that today. This argument that we saw playing out at the State Department briefing room, in the White House briefing room, Who deserves the credit here? Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: This deal would have to be implemented by the next team, so I told my team to coordinate closely with the incoming team to make sure we're all speaking with the same voice, because that's what American presidents do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Credit for this Mr. President, you or Trump?
BIDEN: Is that a joke?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's quite a moment.
SANNER: Little ego bruised?
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, regardless of who--
SANNER: I don't know.
COLLINS: --who's getting the credit?
SANNER: Right.
COLLINS: The challenge exists for both Biden in actually getting here. And Trump is, as Biden noted, is going to be the one actually implementing this deal.
SANNER: I mean, look, how can you guarantee? The United States is a guarantor of this deal, right? We are literally a guarantor of the deal. And our job in that deal, as a guarantor, is to bring Israel to phase two, to get the rest of the hostages released in phase two.
How could we guarantee that with the current administration, without the Trump team, who actually have to bring it home? The negotiations won't even begin to phase two until day 16. That's in the Trump administration.
And so, yes, I mean how -- I think you absolutely have to say, there are two things that were essential. One is that the next administration had to guarantee that, so they had to be part of this. And the second thing, who could bring Bibi to the table?
COLLINS: Well, and what does it say about Netanyahu's view of not just the incoming administration. But also, this deal has so many parts of it that the very far-right members of his government--
SANNER: Yes.
COLLINS: --were extremely opposed to.
SANNER: And are, including members of Netanyahu's own party. We always talk about Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, these two other parties that are part of the coalition, being problems. But actually, there are 10 members, inside of Netanyahu's own government, who have warned him on this deal.
And so, the only way we're going to have this deal continue, and not break down, from the Israeli side. There's the Hamas side that might break down too. Is if Trump really holds his feet to the fire, because politically, Netanyahu doesn't want to get to phase two, in my view.
COLLINS: It's going to be fascinating to watch with only, of course, 16 days after next Monday, to see what that looks like.
Beth Sanner, thank you for that.
And of course, really, it's the families here, who are at the center of this. And we do know that at least two Americans, who are being held by Hamas in Gaza, are expected to be released, this Sunday. Our sources tell us that Keith Siegel and Sagui Dekel-Chen will be those two names that you'll see on Sunday.
And, of course, that's going to be a joyous return for them, and for their families, but also a bittersweet one for those who know that their loved ones are not coming back alive.
[21:25:00]
Omer Neutra grew up in Long Island, New York. He was a 21-year-old, serving in the Israeli military when Hamas attacked on October 7th. The IDF confirmed, last month, he was killed by Hamas that day, and that they have been holding his body. His parents, Ronen and Orna, join me now.
And I just want to say, first off, thank you guys for taking the time to come on, on such a just a crazy day, after these 15 months that have been so devastating and painful.
Ronen, can you just tell me how you're feeling tonight?
RONEN NEUTRA, FATHER OF OMER NEUTRA: The way you said it, it's bittersweet. We've been, for 422 days, extremely hopeful that we're going to see Omer, and have a chance to hug him and get united. Unfortunately, at this point, we're just hoping to get Omer back, and be able to give him a proper burial.
And knowing that this deal is finally happening, is getting us closer, although it's probably not going to be on the first stage of that deal. And we are concerned, as we heard also in the earlier conversation you had, that the deal may not move from stage one to the second stage. So, we have to make sure that this is happening.
And we are extremely thankful for the Biden administration, for all the work they've been doing.
But we also know the importance of the Trump administration, and what they've done, to bring all the parties, right now, to the table, put the deal that finally is starting to happen, and we're hoping that we're going to see the end of it, and all the 98 hostages will come home.
COLLINS: And Orna, I mean, the two of you have been out there, so publicly, campaigning for the release of your son, since October 7th. And you called on Trump and Biden to work together to bring the hostages home. Obviously, they did that here.
And just in this moment, after getting the news that you all received, back in December, about your son, what would you say to those coming into the White House, who are the guarantors of this deal, about the importance of bringing Omer home, and having that moment for the both of you?
ORNA NEUTRA, MOTHER OF OMER NEUTRA: Kaitlan, in this unfortunate circumstance, we have been lucky, and I say that gratefully, to have such responsive teams working with us, on both sides.
The Biden team has been working closely, and has been dedicated to this, for 15 months now, and -- and we don't take that for granted. And yes, that's correct. We -- one of the things we did right after the election, we met with Jake Sullivan, and we asked him, and we asked Biden, Please, call in the teams, work together. Don't wait until Inauguration Day. We can't afford that. And again, that's exactly what occurred, and we're really appreciative.
And the Trump team as well, has been very responsive. And we know that they appreciate what's at stake, and they have committed to bring this deal to a conclusion. It's a fragile deal, and everyone knows that they're going to have to make sure that it moves from one step to the next.
COLLINS: Yes.
Ronen, and Orna, thank you for joining in. Everyone is praying and hopeful that you will have that moment, to be able to properly bury your son. Thank you for joining us in such a painful time.
O. NEUTRA: Thank you, Kaitlan.
R. NEUTRA: Thank you.
COLLINS: Really appreciate both of them and their perspective tonight.
Up next, here in Washington, we're going to bring you the highlights of that confirmation hearing that happened on Capitol Hill. The Attorney General nominee, Pam Bondi, was grilled by Democrats on her loyalty to the President-elect, and her 2020 election denials. It was a fiery confirmation hearing that we'll unpack in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ALEX PADILLA (D-CA): Do you have any evidence of election fraud, or irregularities, in the 2020 election?
PAM BONDI, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL: So, first, Senator--
PADILLA: Yes or no, it's a yes-or-no question.
Do you have evidence, yes or no.
Citizenship Clause, the 14th Amendment--
BONDI: I'm not going to be bullied by you, Senator Padilla.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Here in Washington today, President-elect Trump's pick to be his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, promised senators that she would follow the law if confirmed. But she also repeatedly dodged questions, when it came to -- when it came to specifics about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: I will not politicize that office. I will not target people, simply because of their political affiliation.
I have -- I would have to listen to the tape, Senator.
I haven't seen the file. I haven't seen the investigation. I haven't looked at anything. It would be irresponsible, of me, to make a commitment, regarding anything. It would be irresponsible for me to talk about anything. And it is pending litigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight are a pair of Justice Department veterans.
Elie Honig was an Assistant U.S. Attorney.
And Jamil Jaffer was the Counsel to the Assistant Attorney General for National Security.
[21:35:00]
Elie, Pam Bondi said today she will not have an enemies list, and that she will not carry out investigations that are politically-motivated. Did you think that -- what did you make of her answers, when it came to independence from Trump, but also adherence to the rule of law.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, good and necessary that she said that. But I do think that what Pam Bondi said today is a little bit different than what she showed us.
Now, she said all the things that every attorney general nominee has said, and must say, throughout the years. I'll be independent. I'll make my own judgments.
But on the other hand, she still refused to say Donald Trump lost the 2020 election.
And why that matters, and why there's a tension there, is because she knows she can't say that. Because, number one, if she had claimed that Donald Trump did win the 2020 election, she would be admitting she lied. And number two, let's face it, she knows she can't remain loyal to Donald Trump if she says that.
And so, her refusal to say that, she's a smart woman, she knows the truth, shows me that under it all, she still has this allegiance to Donald Trump that's somewhat in conflict with her rhetoric about independence.
So, we'll see how that actually plays out when she's at the helm of DOJ, and she will be. But I saw a real contradiction there.
COLLINS: What stood out to you?
JAMIL JAFFER, FORMER COUNSEL TO ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL, FORMER ASSOC. COUNSEL TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, look, I think she was tough, she was forthright. She made her points directly. She didn't take BS from the senators. People talked over her. She waited. She said, Don't -- Let me answer your question. That didn't happen quite a bit.
I think she demonstrated that she's got the mettle. She's a prosecutor. She's been a prosecutor for almost two decades. She demonstrated that mettle, and demonstrated that she can lead the Justice Department in a direction that, if she demonstrates independence, that could be a decent direction.
COLLINS: What did you make of the moment where, you know, one concern that Democrats had questioned her a lot about was January 6 pardons, which we know, on Monday--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --we are going to get some of them, at least. Trump has promised to do it within minutes of taking office.
There was an interesting part, where Republican senator, Thom Tillis, who is, of course, a friend of Trump's, and was -- and was not very direct in all of his questions, in terms of, like, being very hard on her. But he had a comment that stood out to me, that he said about the January 6 rioters, and those who have been convicted of assaulting police officers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I find it hard to believe that the President of the United States, or you, would look at facts that were used to convict the violent people on January the 6th, and say, It was just an intemperate moment. That -- I don't even expect you to respond to that. But I think it's an absurd and unfair hypothetical here, and you probably haven't heard the last of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HONIG: Well, I think both the Senator and, later on, Pam Bondi, were trying to send maybe a message to Donald Trump of, If you're going to do this, and he clearly is going to do this, to issue some pardons, You need to draw a line, and you cannot pardon those people who are convicted of assaulting police officers.
Important to note, the A.G. doesn't really have a formal role in pardons, right? The A.G. certainly doesn't control pardons. The president can choose to consult with the A.G. But they're not even going to have time. I mean, he's going to be issuing pardons, on December (ph) 20th, the first few hours.
And I think Pam Bondi noted that. She said, I'm not going to have time to go through hundreds of files. He's going to do what he's going to do.
COLLINS: And there was a moment today, where Senator Lindsey Graham came back in the room, and he said, her hearing must be going well, because she was getting a lot of questions about another nominee, Kash Patel--
JAFFER: Yes.
COLLINS: --who is Trump's pick to run the FBI. There were a lot of questions for her about him, obviously, in her purview.
JAFFER: Right. COLLINS: And I just want you to listen to what she had to say, at one point, where she kept getting asked about what he said about QAnon, or pursuing the media, or an enemies list.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: I look forward to hearing his testimony about QAnon in front of this committee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JAFFER: Well, look, I mean Kash Patel -- Pam Bondi is not Kash Patel, and she's definitely not Matt Gaetz, and that's what you can say about her.
She's going to get confirmed. She's going to be the Attorney General of the United States. The question is, how she's going to deal with Kash Patel, if he's confirmed, he's the FBI director. They in theory, the FBI director reports to the Attorney General. In reality, it's much more of an equal relationship. So, we'll see how it plays out.
But she demonstrated, Look, I'm a rule follower. I was the Attorney General of Florida for eight years. I know what I'm doing here. I can go up against Senate. I want to work with you, but I'm not going to take BS from you either.
We'll see what happens. Kash Patel gets his hearing. We'll see how that goes.
COLLINS: Yes, and it seems she was confident in her chances of getting confirmed. And that's why she was pushing back so much more--
JAFFER: Yes.
COLLINS: --on the senators. We'll see.
Jamil Jaffer. Elie Honig. great to have you both here tonight.
Another nominee was also on the Hill today, a lot of hearing was going on at once. Trump's pick to be Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, was pressed on his positions, most notably on NATO and the war in Ukraine. You may have missed his answers. We'll show you them, in a moment.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: When Donald Trump reenters the Oval Office, this Monday, he'll face a number of global crises, including Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and threats from Iran and China.
Today, the President-elect's pick, to help tackle those problems abroad, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, was forced to perform a balancing act, at his own confirmation hearing, between Trump's NATO criticisms, and his own beliefs, on how critical that military alliance is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): Without the NATO alliance, there is no end to the Cold War. In fact, without the NATO alliance, it's quite possible that much of what today, at the time, today, we know as Europe, would have fallen victim to aggression.
I'm not stating a public policy position. I'm stating a question to be asked, and that is, should the role of the United States in NATO, in the 21st Century, be the primary defense role, or as a backstop to aggression?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources tonight are, the Democratic congressman, Ro Khanna, of California; and Republican congressman, Mike Lawler, of New York.
It's great to have you both here.
Ro Khanna, let me start with you. Because listening to him there, talking about this. Trump has threatened to not defend NATO allies, who aren't spending enough on defense. What did you make of what Senator Rubio said? Did it make you feel better to hear what he's -- that said, given he's on a glide path to confirmation?
[21:45:00]
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Well, I have appreciated Senator Rubio's commitment to NATO. He had introduced the bill that we passed, that said a president can't unilaterally get out of NATO.
But what I hope is that he's going to convince the President that it's worth defending Ukraine. Because if you allow Putin to just get one- fifth of Ukraine, what message are you sending to Xi Jinping?
And he should also tell President Trump that if we talk about annexing Greenland, or using force for Greenland, what message are we sending to Putin and Xi Jinping?
COLLINS: What did you make of Senator Rubio? Because when he was talking about Ukraine and Russia, and ending that war. And obviously, you have said, argued for supporting Ukraine. That he was saying, Ukraine and Russia both have to make concessions.
I was listening to that, and thinking, Trump has pledged to end of this war on day one. Now, some people are saying, Take him seriously, not literally, on that. But what does that actually look like after Monday?
REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Look, obviously, under the Biden administration, the world is in the most precarious place since World War II. When you look at the Russian aggression in Ukraine, you look at the terrorist attacks against Israel, the illicit oil trade between Iran and China. These are all challenges the President is going to have to deal with, on day one. I think, fundamentally, I've been very clear, I support Ukraine. I think it is paramount to push back against Russian aggression, not just with respect to Ukraine's sovereignty, but Eastern Europe. Countries like Moldova would fall in five seconds if Ukraine fell. So, there is significant consequence, to allowing Putin to continue his aggression.
The reality is that Putin's aggression occurred under Barack Obama, and it occurred under Joe Biden. It did not occur under Donald Trump. And I think Donald Trump is going to try to work, to negotiate some type of a settlement that pushes Putin back, but also possibly addresses some of his concerns to avoid this continuing conflict.
Obviously, a continuing conflict in Ukraine is to nobody's benefit. There has been so much loss of life, death and destruction, and -- but I think it is paramount, as part of this, that we protect Ukraine's structural sovereignty.
KHANNA: Let me just say, first of all, George W. Bush allowed Russia to go into Georgia. President Obama very effectively prevented more of the invasion on Ukraine.
And President Biden and Secretary Blinken deserve enormous credit. They got the intelligence right. They were the ones who released the intelligence. People were saying, We were going to lose Ukraine in six weeks, that they were going to get to Kyiv. They stood up, and rallied the entire Western world, in the defense of Ukraine.
And you have had Republicans and Trump--
LAWLER: No--
KHANNA: --basically calling for appeasement, saying--
LAWLER: But--
KHANNA: --Let's give -- Let's give one-fifth of Ukraine to Russia.
LAWLER: I think--
COLLINS: Hold on, Congressman.
LAWLER: Yes.
COLLINS: Because on that front, though, of what this looks like going forward, now that Trump will be in office, or Republicans are in charge of both houses -- of both chambers on Capitol Hill.
Today, House Speaker Mike Johnson removed Mike Turner, a Congressman who is the Chairman of House Intelligence, from that position.
And there -- Mike Johnson said, it had nothing to do with Trump.
Mike Turner said, on the record, to CBS, that it was concerns from Mar-a-Lago, that he said Johnson cited to him.
Are you -- do you see any justification for removing Mike Turner, as the head of the Intel chair.
LAWLER: Look, I do not. But this is a decision of the Speaker. The Speaker controls the appointment to the Intelligence committee.
I think a big part of what Mike Turner was able to do was to stabilize the committee, after Adam Schiff's disastrous run of the committee. The fact is, it is less political today than it was just a few years ago, and that's important. Ultimately, it is a decision of the Speaker. That is within his purview.
To me, fundamentally, the issues we are dealing with, around the globe, are significant. The United States is under attack, by a coordinated effort, from China, Russia and Iran, that seeks to undermine and destabilize the U.S., Europe, Israel and the Free World.
You see what China is doing with respect to control of waterways and ports, economic coercion. These are significant challenges that we are going to have to deal with. Our intelligence community is critical to that. That's why I was one of the people pushing back, against some of the changes to 702, just in this last Congress.
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: So, there's a lot of work ahead of us. But ultimately, that is the choice of the Speaker.
COLLINS: Well, and of course, Mike Turner was a huge proponent for Ukraine, as well, which is not common among House Republicans, among all of them. It's a question of who replaces him.
[21:50:00]
On this front, as we're looking at this today, speaking of Iran, and then the Middle East, and this ceasefire deal that has been struck with Hamas and Israel. Tom Malinowski said today that Yes, this is President Biden's deal. But he said, quote, As much as I hate to say it, he couldn't have done it without Trump.
Is that how you view it as well?
KHANNA: Well, I don't know. I mean, I give if -- if President Trump's team was helpful, they worked together. And the main thing is that there's peace, and the hostages are coming back, and the war is hopefully going to end. So, I don't want to politicize that.
I will say, though, when it comes to what this President has achieved, in getting our NATO allies, when it comes to what he has achieved, in standing up for Ukraine integrity, and he's leaving Donald Trump with Ukraine fully sovereign. If that's not the case, if Donald Trump gives part of Ukraine to Putin, it will be appeasement--
LAWLER: Well--
KHANNA: And Biden would never have let that happen.
LAWLER: --the only appeaser here was Joe Biden, with respect to Iran, allowing the illicit oil trade to the tune of $200 billion that funded Hamas, has allowed (ph) the Houthis--
KHANNA: That is not true. That money was -- that was put--
LAWLER: --and other terror networks.
KHANNA: --that was put--
LAWLER: It is -- it is--
KHANNA: That money never went to the--
(CROSSTALK)
LAWLER: --absolutely -- it is absolutely--
COLLINS: Congressman, your final thought on the release?
LAWLER: The fact is, Donald Trump's -- was very clear that Hamas needed to come to terms and release the hostages, or there would be hell to pay. Bibi Netanyahu said today, Donald Trump was instrumental in getting this deal done. And the fact is--
KHANNA: Netanyahu has also praised Biden's leadership.
LAWLER: --the fact is that it would not have been done, if Donald Trump did not win the election. Unfortunately, Hamas, and our allies--
KHANNA: I think it happened, because America came together.
LAWLER: --and Qatar and Egypt were not--
KHANNA: That should be the lesson. I'm hopeful--
LAWLER: --were not willing to accede to this administration.
They did work together. Steve Witkoff was in the Middle East, and I think that was critical to getting this done.
KHANNA: And hopefully, we'll work together to keep Ukraine sovereign, and not concede.
LAWLER: I've been clear on that. So that's--
KHANNA: You have.
COLLINS: We'll see what that looks like.
LAWLER: --that's not an issue.
COLLINS: Congressman Ro Khanna, Mike Lawler, thank you both for joining tonight.
Up next. We're going to go on the ground in California. A live update on the wildfires there. A new fire started today, as officials are issuing new warnings of winds picking back up again.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, L.A. Mayor, Karen Bass, is warning residents that they're not out of the woods yet, even as a majority of the red flag warnings have expired now this hour, across southern California, with forecasters saying the Santa Ana winds, which of course, started all of this, could pick back up again as soon as next week, threatening the progress that we've seen firefighters making on the ground, as they've been working to extinguish five of these major fires, and also any new hot spots.
CNN's Nick Watt is live in Altadena, which has been devastated by the Eaton fire.
And Nick, I know officials have been issuing warnings, about that these extreme hazards for fire growth is still there. There hasn't been any in the last 24 hours, which is obviously helpful. But what is the latest on the ground, about this, and the investigation into how those fires started?
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, here in Altadena, they're just damping down any hot spots they can find. And they're also going about the grim task of going through all the 5,000-plus structures that were destroyed, searching for any more human remains. We saw them here, at this school, this afternoon, a couple of guys with rakes.
The investigation. Well, the ATF says that they've had about 150 leads. That's from homeowners, witnesses. And also, they're poring through social media videos, and also footage from webcams, stationed around, trying to narrow down the cause. The way they do it is basically a process of elimination. And it's going to take a long, long time. I mean, on the table, arson and obviously sparks from power cables.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, a difficult thing though that, we were hearing from officials, could take months before they figure out what that looks like.
WATT: Yes.
COLLINS: And I know you've been talking to residents in Altadena. It's a historic Black community. What have they been telling you? Because I know, part of the frustration here is, they can't even get to see their homes, to start that insurance process, to see what that looks like, and so much that they've been going through.
WATT: Yes, all of that Kaitlan. And also, they're worried that this fire is basically going to take away what they loved about this community.
Now, for the last 50 years, this place, Altadena, has grown up as a multicultural community, range of socioeconomic backgrounds, and the people here love it for that. And they fear that after these fires, the rebuilding, that community spirit is going to be lost.
Take a listen to just a couple of the people who I spoke to today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's largely, I guess, a large Black population. But it's not all Black, man. It's mixed. I know people from every race that lives here, and that they're happy, and they get along. It's nice. It's almost a perfect community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm really afraid to see what's going to happen to my neighbors, and, you know, who's going to stick around after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of the people, who live in Altadena, we're working-class people, you know? We are -- we're not the rich celebrities. We don't have, like, the ability to just go back in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT: And I spoke to a lady, Catherine Anderson (ph), who moved here in 1972. Black woman. She said that there was white flight, and after the white flight, Black people could afford to live here. She put down 300 bucks on that first home. She moved away. She's since moved back. And she told me, today, she's just turned 80, and she said that she's asked her Lord for another 10 years, so she can stick around and see this community rebuilt.
There is a determination to rebuild. There's just a fear that forces, out with their control, might take what they've built away from them.
Kaitlan.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes. I'm so glad you talked to them, just about, the emphasis on where -- the loss of livelihoods that so many have talked about, but also losing that community that clearly meant so much to all of them.
WATT: Yes.
COLLINS: Nick Watt, I'm really glad you spoke to them. Thank you for sharing that with us, tonight.
WATT: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
