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State of the Union

Interview With Fmr. Lt. Gov. Geoff Duncan (R-GA); Interview With Sen. Laphonza Butler (D-CA); Interview With Sen. Markwayne Mullin (R-OK); Interview With U.S. Principal Deputy National Security Adviser Jon Finer. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired August 04, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:37]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Decision point. Kamala Harris meets with top running mate contenders today as she moves to the next stage of her campaign.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When we fight, we win.

BASH: Who will she choose? Close former adviser now California Senator Laphonza Butler is here.

And at odds. Same stage, different day for Donald Trump and Kamala Harris in Georgia.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She has destroyed our country.

BASH: But Trump took a detour to attack Georgia's Republican governor.

TRUMP: He's a bad guy.

BASH: How does that help him?

Former Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan, who now opposes Trump, joins our panel to respond. And close Trump ally Senator Markwayne Mullin is ahead.

Plus: home-free. President Biden celebrates a successful prisoner swap...

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We get them back.

BASH: ... and turns to rising tensions in the Middle East. Is a cease-fire deal more elusive? Deputy National Security Adviser Jonathan Finer is coming up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is on veep watch.

Vice President Kamala Harris is narrowing down her running mate list and will interview top contenders today at her first appearance with her new number two on Tuesday. CNN has learned that at least three men have made it to the final round and will meet with Harris today, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, and Arizona Senator Mark Kelly.

But another presidential right of passion -- passage, rather, a fall debate, is not so clear. After this weekend, Donald Trump backed out of a face-off he'd agreed to with Biden and said he would only debate Harris if FOX could moderate in front of a studio audience next month.

That came after days of false attacks by Trump on Harris' racial identity. Last night, Trump praised these comments from a speaker at his Georgia rally.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAELAH MONTGOMERY, REPUBLICAN ACTIVIST: A few days ago, President Trump said he didn't know Vice President Harris was a black woman. I'm trying to figure out what all the outrage is about, because she's only black when it's time to get elected.

While you're touting her as a savior for black people, she identifies as an Asian woman. She chose her side, and it wasn't ours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Here with me now is a former top Harris aide and now U.S. senator from California, Laphonza Butler.

Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Of course, let's just go back in time a few days to what sparked this uproar, when the former president falsely claimed that the vice president -- quote -- "happened to turn black" for political reasons. He has since doubled down, highlighting her family's Indian heritage on social media, suggesting she's not actually black.

You are the only black woman right now serving in the U.S. Senate. You have known the vice president for a long time. What do you make of all this?

SEN. LAPHONZA BUTLER (D-CA): I think it's typical distracting, dodging Donald Trump.

It is interesting that this argument is coming at a time when Project 2025 was being connected to him and to his campaign, that his campaign leadership was making sure that Project 2025 was being distanced from their operation.

And so this is an absolute distraction. It is an insult. It is despicable. This is a woman who was born in Oakland, California, who has declared and lived proudly her -- all of her identities her entire life, embracing the totality of who she is. And Donald Trump wants to divide our country. The vice president wants

to unite us and to bring everyone forward, no matter their identity. And this is the only card he's got to play, and so he's playing it. He's desperate.

BASH: So, it sounds like the way that the vice president and her campaign are approaching this, which is kind of a less is more approach, saying that it is divisive and disrespectful, kind of what you just said, and that Americans deserve better, is enough, or do you think she should be and her campaign should be more aggressive in calling it out?

BUTLER: When he has the courage to meet her on the debate stage, I'm sure she will take care of any, clear up any confusion that he has about who she is.

[09:05:05]

But the vice president is very clear that the American people want to have a leader who actually cares about them, who wakes up every day putting on the armor that is required to do the work to improve their lives.

And so this distraction is just that, a distraction, and I don't think it requires much more response than him saying it to her face.

BASH: You think they will end up debating?

BUTLER: The vice president says she will be there on September 10. I hope Donald Trump shows up.

BASH: Since we're on the topic about race, and I will just add gender to that, the -- she's, of course, the first woman of color, not the first woman, but the first woman of color to lead a major party's presidential ticket.

The first woman to do so, Hillary Clinton, said in an op-ed that she sometimes shied away from talking about her own historymaking candidacy, because -- quote -- "I wasn't sure voters were ready for that."

Do you think things have changed in eight years?

BUTLER: I believe so. I believe that the probability of the American people being able to cast their ballot for a person for whom they have seen perform in the -- at the highest levels for the last three-and-a- half years, a person who has led the largest Department of Justice, second only to the U.S. Department of Justice, a person who has been a public servant fighting for women and families their entire life, I believe the American people are ready to have a leader that puts them first.

And, in this debate and in this contest, the contrast couldn't be clearer.

BASH: What you just described could be her qualifications, not her gender or her race. That's where she should stay?

BUTLER: I think she's going to own all of who she is. That is who she is. She has never shied away from -- look, when you see her, you see a woman of color. There's nothing that she can do to distract or hide from that. She's going to own all of who she is, and she's going to tell America what she brings to the table.

BASH: Let's talk about some of the issues that voters are going to go to the polls about, the economy.

The U.S. added 114,000 new jobs last month, which was disappointing. Unemployment jumped to 4.3 percent. Rising fears now that they're -- raising fears that there could be a recession. But even before that, even when the job numbers were really good a month after month, polls consistently have shown that voters are most concerned about the economy, and they don't approve of the Biden/Harris administration and their handling of it.

What should she do differently?

BUTLER: Look, I think what she's going to be doing is telling the American people what they have been doing, and I think she's going to project a continued vision of the future for how our economy can work for everyone.

There is no -- no doubt that there is fear and anxiety for working families all across this country. And the history and the record of vice president -- of the vice president is that she has stood arm in arm, shoulder to shoulder with those working families her entire career.

I think she's going to own that and expect her to have an economic plan that continues to include all of the American people.

BASH: A new economic plan or will continue with the Biden administration plans?

BUTLER: I think it's about implementing the -- continuing to implement the Biden/Harris administration plan.

This is a plan that has added 18 million new jobs, that has the fastest growing manufacturing jobs in the history of our country. I think she's got to make sure that there's continued implementation of their plan and she's going to definitely bring a vision to that is about what she wants to do.

BASH: In the 2020 primary, the vice president praised the defund the police movement, and now she says she doesn't support defunding the police. She called for decriminalizing crossing the border illegally. Now she supports President Biden's policies for clamping down at the border.

She supported Medicare for all at one point, eliminating private insurance, and her campaign says she doesn't support that now. She's reversed herself on a fracking ban. What do you think that voters should think when she's reversed herself on several issues just in the last four years?

BUTLER: I think that voters should think that she's a human being who learns new things every single day and is -- has the ability to take the time and effort to hear the concerns of all people.

I think that they should be certain that she is a fighter and a leader who's going to do the work on their behalf to ensure that there is an economy that ensures that no one is left behind, that there is a climate -- that we're going to continue to address the climate crisis in a way that ensures that there is an Earth here for young people and for next generations of leaders.

[09:10:02]

I think that they should absolutely believe that she is a leader who cares about people and who's going to put them first, as she has done her entire career.

BASH: So no concern about flip-flopping?

BUTLER: No, no concern about flip-flopping. This is a part -- our country changes every single day. The conditions of our country changes every single day.

The vice president has been consistent in her values, and there are lots of different ways to solve the challenges that are in front of us. We have got to make sure that we have a candidate who is listening who -- and a leader who, frankly, again, puts the people first.

BASH: Before I let you go, I want to play video that has resurfaced. It's all over the Internet. You already know what I'm going to play.

BUTLER: Yes.

BASH: 2019, it was you, then an adviser to then Senator Harris fending off a right-wing activist who came up to you at an airport.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ANNA PAULINA LUNA (R-FL): I want to know about the children that you (OFF-MIKE) at the border right now. (OFF-MIKE) real quick?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. I'm just taking a picture real quick. I'm sorry.

LUNA: You're getting behind me. You're saying that you're fighting for women.

No, I'm not going to back off. Don't touch me. Don't touch me.

(CROSSTALK)

LUNA: I'm asking her. She's saying that she supports...

(CROSSTALK)

BUTLER: I understand. Those ladies asked her to take a picture before you walked up.

LUNA: I don't care. You're in my way. Don't talk to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: What's most remarkable about that scene that we just played is now, of course, Kamala Harris is the vice president and nominee for president, you are a United States senator and the woman who came up to you all and to Harris is Anna Paulina Luna, who's a congresswoman right now.

BUTLER: Look, I think it shows, again, the continued leadership of women in this country who have a strong set of values and who want to offer themselves in public service to their communities.

And it's great that we all have moved from the airport to some of the...

BASH: Even Anna Paulina Luna?

(LAUGHTER)

BUTLER: Even -- look, voters in Florida elected her. So they may -- they must think that she shares their values and has something to offer to the American discourse.

That was an occasion where the then-United States Senator Kamala Harris was actually trying to have a conversation with other people in the airport and Representative Luna aggressively wanted to make her point. Here we are.

BASH: Thank you so much for coming, and appreciate it. Nice to see you.

BUTLER: Thank you. Good to see you.

BASH: And what do Donald Trump's attacks this week reveal about the state of the presidential race?

A senator and close ally of the former president will join me next.

And the debate over the debate. Will we ever see a Trump-Harris face- off?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:09]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

Americans released from Russia are home with their families after an ambitious prisoner swap, as the U.S. turns to fears of a new crisis in the Middle East.

Here with me now is Deputy National Security Adviser Jon Finer. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. I want to start with what is happening in the Middle East. The U.S. is

moving military assets there after Hamas' top political leader and negotiator was assassinated in Iran.

Do you believe an Iranian retaliation against Israel is imminent?

JON FINER, U.S. PRINCIPAL DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, Dana, I won't speak for what the Iranians will or won't do. It's a better question posed for them.

But what I will say is, we and our ally Israel are preparing for every possibility, and that's the vein in which the announcements that were made by the Pentagon took place. All of those posture adjustments are to prepare for a potential response against Israel from Iran or any other adversary that should try to do Israel harm.

And we have been quite clear that we will work to defend Israel against the threats that it faces from outside its borders. And you don't have to take our word for it. Israel faced an extraordinary threat on April 13. The United States and other partners and allies mustered to help Israel defend against and defeat that threat.

And we are preparing to do so again should the need arise.

BASH: President Biden said that assassination hasn't helped efforts to negotiate a cease-fire and free hostages from Gaza.

Axios reporter and CNN analyst Barak Ravid reports that top Israeli security and intelligence officials are concerned that Prime Minister Netanyahu does not want to move forward with a cease-fire-for-hostages deal.

Does the president think Netanyahu is trying to avoid a deal?

FINER: Well, Dana, I won't speak to the private conversations that take place between the president and the prime minister.

What I will say is, these are two people who have a four-decade-plus relationship. One of the extraordinary assets in the U.S.-Israel relationship is this personal relationship between these two leaders, in which they can speak to each other directly and candidly. That's been the case since President Biden came to office.

It's certainly been the case since October 7. The United States has been extremely clear, both publicly and privately, about how urgent we think it is that this cease-fire and hostage deal be established. Nothing that's taken place over the last week or two has changed that sense of urgency.

And, if anything, part of why we believe this needs to happen as quickly as possible is because, in the Middle East, at a time in which there are hostilities taking place, outside factors can infect and disrupt these talks. And so we don't want to allow that to happen. We want the parties back at the table and working through a deal that we believe is very much on the table. BASH: But, Jon, separate and apart from private conversations, the

question is whether President Biden thinks Prime Minister Netanyahu is trying to avoid a deal.

[09:20:09]

FINER: I will let the prime minister speak to his position when it comes to a hostage deal. And I certainly won't characterize the president's assessment of the prime minister.

We have conveyed our position quite clearly in the president's public remarks, in the president's private remarks. We see Israeli negotiators at the table working towards finalizing an arrangement. We think that is exactly what they should be doing.

BASH: So you believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu is doing everything he can to get a deal?

FINER: What I believe is, there is not currently a deal in place. There should be a deal in place. And we are putting as much pressure as we can and working to facilitate as much as possible with all sides to try to get this deal established, because we think that is fundamentally good for Israel, good for its security, certainly good for the Palestinians who live in Gaza, and good for the region to try to turn the temperature down on this entire situation.

BASH: The parents of Edan Alexander, an American citizen who's been held in Gaza for 302 days, told me that, during a meeting with President Biden and the prime minister, he personally assured the hostage families, Netanyahu did, that he was committed to a deal and wouldn't add new Israeli conditions.

And that meeting was just 10 days ago in the White House. Since then, Netanyahu made new demands. And Yael and Adi Alexander say that he lied to them in front of President Biden. Did he?

FINER: Look, I'm not going to get between a disagreement that may exist between hostage families, who are going through the most extraordinarily difficult situation imaginable, and the prime minister of Israel.

What I will say is, the president and the prime minister had a very direct discussion this topic. After that, the president and the prime minister went into a room with the American hostage families and heard very directly from them how important it is, how anguishing it is to have their loved ones in this situation, how important it is for this deal to get done.

That remains our overriding focus, in addition to providing a defense from Israel against the threats that it may face, turning this conversation and turning our efforts to the arrangement to try to get a cease-fire done and get these hostages freed. We are not going to lose sight of that important goal.

BASH: I want to turn to the historic prisoner exchange with Russia this week. In a joint statement, the House speaker, Mike Johnson and Senate

minority leader, Mitch McConnell, celebrated the release of three wrongfully imprisoned Americans, but also warned -- quote -- "Trading hardened Russian criminals for innocent Americans does little to discourage Putin's reprehensible behavior."

Are they wrong?

FINER: Well, Dana, I'd say a few things. One is, the president himself has acknowledged that these are extremely difficult decisions for any head of state.

He has also said that it will be a priority for this administration -- and I think we have walked the walk on this -- to help free Americans who are wrongfully detained abroad in situations that are almost unimaginable to many of us.

And I think that what the president did, and, by the way, what his fellow heads of state did from four other allied countries, including the chancellor of Germany, who the president has specially acknowledged, was, I think, an act of moral courage that has led to lives being altered for the better for Americans, for Russian dissidents who were caught up in President Putin's unjust detentions.

And this is the kind of decision that the president has said he will make, he will continue to make, and he will make it a priority. So will this alter Russia's behavior going forward? I, frankly, don't think that is a question that entered into our calculus. We have seen countries like Russia detain Americans before this administration came to office.

We have seen them detain Americans during this administration, and we are likely to see countries like this do this going forward. And it will be a priority for the United States to get people home when we can.

BASH: I want to ask you before you go about Marc Fogel. He is a U.S. schoolteacher arrested in Russia in 2021, sentenced to 14 years in prison for allegedly having a small amount of medical marijuana. He wasn't included in this deal.

His family says they received no explanation from the administration, and they're not happy about it. His mother, Anne Fogel, told my colleague Jim Sciutto that she has not heard from the White House.

FINER: So here's what I'd say, Dana, which is that Marc Fogel is on all of our minds every single day. We have been working to get Marc Fogel out throughout the course of his detention, including trying to get Marc Fogel included in this deal.

And we are continuing right now in real time to try to work toward the release of Marc Fogel. Beyond that, I don't have much to say, other than to reiterate what has been a priority for the president, which is, whether those American detainees are in Russia or in a country like Afghanistan or in Iran or in Syria or anywhere else, we are going to make it a priority to try to bring them home. [09:25:02]

And we showed that last week.

BASH: Jon Finer, thank you so much for being here this morning. I appreciate it.

FINER: Thank you.

BASH: And a close ally of President Trump, the former president, is coming up.

Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): She will make this decision, as she makes every decision, in the best interests of the American people.

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Kamala Harris is going to beat him in a debate and is going to beat him on November 5 and is going to be our next president.

GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): You make that bastard wake up afterwards and know that a black woman kicked his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sent him on the road.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:30:02]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

Vice President Kamala Harris is meeting today with her vice presidential pick finalists.

My panel is here to talk about that now.

I will start with the Democrats to see -- well, Democrat and Democrat who likes...

GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Temporarily, temporarily a Democrat.

BASH: ... who likes Kamala Harris -- supporters of Kamala Harris. How about that?

DUNCAN: That's right.

BASH: What do you think? What should she do?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think they all are great.

BASH: No, that's...

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

ALLISON: No, I think they're all are great options. I think that they offer something different in the ticket.

I actually -- honestly, most of the time, I have a very strong opinion. I don't have a strong opinion. I think, if she goes with Shapiro, it makes a really strong case for Pennsylvania. But I also know, with Shapiro, folks will -- some folks in the party will want to know, like, well, what is the position suffering people in Palestine and how will we end the war in the Middle East, which is a fair request to know from a future -- or a presidential candidate.

Walz will have to do more introduction to the country. I think he probably is a name that most people haven't heard of as most -- as much, but has a great record as a governor. And then, if you have Kelly, Arizona, there's a conversation I have about immigration. So I think they are all a great choice.

At the end of the day, it will be who she has good chemistry with and feels like I can lead -- I can run a campaign in 95 days and win, and then I can lead this country for four years, maybe even eight.

BASH: So you have a unique position. Welcome. Nice to see you, Geoff Duncan.

You're the former lieutenant governor of Georgia, serving as a Republican there. You now support Kamala Harris because of who she's running against.

Your unique perspective is that, I guess, who are Republicans most worried about?

DUNCAN: Well, I think Kamala Harris has de-risked her finalist list. There's really no mistake in that list. There's no chance of her doing a J.D. Vance selection, right, and just being -- doing harm to the ticket.

So I do think the blocking and tackling of simple math is Pennsylvania. I think Republicans would be scared to see a governor of Pennsylvania almost instantly flip that state to being a loss for the Democrats to being a win for the Democrats.

I think that then creates regional creep. And you could probably get Michigan to come along in other states. So I do think it creates momentum. But, at the end of the day, she doesn't have a liability on her hands with whoever she picks.

BASH: I want to turn to something that just came out, and that is a brand-new poll out of CBS/YouGov. And it shows razor-thin, a razor- thin margin at the top, virtual dead heat, Vice President Harris at 50 percent, President Trump, former President Trump, at 49 percent. But look at what it says about black voters. Among black voters, they

say they will definitely vote; 58 percent say they will definitely vote. That was in July. That was July 18, rather. Now 74 percent say they will definitely vote.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, but look, it's an increase that's necessary, but it's still not high enough.

I mean, the vice president's going to have to get 90 percent or more. She's still behind, but there's 90-plus days. I'm imagining the campaign's going to continue to work on that. I think she's going to have some issues with some younger black men. I got a feeling they're probably working on that.

Ashley, you would know better than I would know.

But I want to touch on the Shapiro issue. I think, out of all of the possibilities, he would potentially be the worst one if I'm looking at Michigan. You're seeing resurfacing past statements.

BASH: Worse for Democrats or for Republicans?

SINGLETON: For Democrats and for Vice President Harris to win the state of Michigan.

Past statements are coming up about things he's stated in the past about the Palestinian people. Some of his rulings as governor as pertaining to state workers and their potential advocacy, which could thus lead them to being fired, has caused quite the conundrum and criticism from younger progressives.

I think there's a large percent of Muslims in the state of Michigan that would absolutely stay home. I went to look at some of those numbers in 2020 compared to now. The vice president cannot afford to lose a substantial number of them. So I would look at someone else if I were Democrats. I don't think that would be the best pick strategically.

BASH: Shermichael, Josh Shapiro's position Israel, on Netanyahu, on the Middle East, on protests is almost identical to the other Democrats he's talking to. The only difference is that he's Jewish.

SINGLETON: Yes, yes. And I...

BASH: So should she just give in to that?

SINGLETON: Well, you know where I stand on that issue. I'm as pro- Israel as they come. And you and I have had many conversations about that.

But I think that it speaks to a bit of the problem with younger progressive Democrats and the cease-fire. I think likely we will see protests return again to college campuses. You and I have had those conversations.

I certainly don't think it's a good thing, but it showcases, within the Democratic Party, there is at least, and I wouldn't say broadly speaking, but there is the appearance of some level of anti-Zionism. I will put it that way, at best. And that's a problem.

BASH: Let me bring Matt in.

MATT MOWERS, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AIDE: Well, look, I think, to Geoff's point, she's picked essentially folks who have been largely vetted, who have been largely gone through the ringer, so to speak, in her final selection here.

[09:35:06]

Now, I do agree with Shermichael. At the end of the day, this is going to be about which candidate can unite the largest share of their party. There's an ever-decreasing number of undecided voters, so it's going to be about, can Kamala Harris unite more Democrats or can Donald Trump unite more Republicans?

To the extent that Josh Shapiro would divide Democrats, I find morally reprehensible. I think it's awful that -- the level of antisemitism that we see among largely the progressive left, not exclusively, but largely, and that that is what might actually factor in.

I hope, in a lot of ways, Vice President Harris actually steps through that and says, you know what, I don't care. I'm going to actually stand up to my own party on some of this, so I'm going to actually say we're going to pick potentially the next Jewish vice president.

Now, at the end of the day, I do think we have to get back to the core of one thing, though. Donald Trump isn't wrong when he says that voters are going to vote on the top of the ticket, not on the second -- for the vice presidential nominee.

We see that consistently year after year every cycle. We have a lot of conversation, we give a lot of airtime to who the vice presidential nominee may be, but, ultimately, it's going to be about Trump versus Harris.

BASH: Let me get you in and then I want to turn to Georgia.

ALLISON: I thought about this, so I reached out to some folks last night who have been a part of the uncommitted movement, and it's not about a person's identity. It's about their policy.

Folks want a cease-fire in the Middle East. They want people to be safe, to be able to live, and to be able to thrive. And whoever the vice president selects, that is -- and that's the overwhelming consensus for the Democratic Party as well.

And so whoever the vice president picks, that is what they want the policy to be. It's not about -- she knows what it means to be a historymaker. She is making history every single day. So she understands how important it would be to a community to have the first Jewish person on the ticket. It's about the policy, not about the actual person. BASH: Let's talk about Georgia last night, because the former

president went down. He actually spoke in the same arena that Kamala Harris did earlier in the week.

And he certainly had his attack lines, many of them on Kamala Harris. But he also went after the sitting governor, who happens to be a Republican. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Your governor, Kemp, and Raffensperger, they're doing everything possible to make 2024 difficult for Republicans to win.

Kemp is very bad for the Republican Party. He wouldn't do anything. He could have ended the travesty with a phone call, because I did nothing wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Kemp is your former boss.

DUNCAN: We served together, for sure.

Brian Kemp has forgotten more about being a Republican than Donald Trump knows about being a Republican. Brad Raffensperger and myself included, we have done more for the conservative cause than Donald Trump has ever done.

This is now starting to not be Donald Trump's problem. This is starting to be the Republican Party's problem. We have to call him out for what he is. He's a felonious thug who walks down the street and throws sucker punches at people like Brian Kemp, like African-American journalists, like John McCain, and the list goes on and on and on again.

And the Republican Party is content sitting across the street watching it happen and not calling him out, not jumping into that fight and saying, you are wrong for us. This 10 percent in the middle, which now feels like it's growing to be bigger than 10 percent in the middle, that's going to decide this election are paying attention.

And I have never seen a human be more self-destructive than Donald Trump the last two weeks. He continues to do it over and over and over again. And when he loses, and the Republican Party finally catches their breath and wakes up and says, we need a GOP 2.0, there will be some people around, but it's going to take time to fix.

My hope is that Kamala Harris ends up being a blank canvas for us to be able to help work these new policies and new ideas into place. That's the risk I'm taking as a Republican voting for Kamala Harris.

BASH: Final word.

MOWERS: I would just say, she's not much of a blank canvas, though, if you play the old tapes. This is going to be...

BASH: But what about the Republican-on-Republican...

(CROSSTALK)

MOWERS: Oh, the -- well, look, yes. No, it reminds me a lot of 2016, the campaign I worked on, where Donald Trump was taking on all comers, including his own party.

He shouldn't do it. I don't think it's helpful in a state like Georgia, where he may only win by a few points.

I actually think the rest of that rally, though, if you looked at it, he was largely on message. He was attacking the vice president on the economy, with increasing unemployment. He was hitting her on the border, which we -- the polling shows she's very weak on right now and has a big vulnerability of voters on.

If he sticks with that part of the speech, which was probably the hour and 20 minutes, not the 10 minutes on Brian Kemp, he's going to win.

SINGLETON: All right, look, he's going to need governors like Kemp and a whole plethora of other Republican governors. They are incredibly popular. He won the state, including the crossover voters. He needs those folks to be on his side.

ALLISON: Is the 10 percent disqualifying? And I think it should be.

BASH: All right, we're out of time, everyone.

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: Thank you so much. Great conversation.

We will be right back. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:44:06]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

We saw a dueling rally this week for Donald Trump and Kamala Harris in Georgia, with just 93 days left until the election.

Here with me now is a close ally of President Trump, Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin, also a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Thank you so much for being here.

We have a lot to get to this morning, but I do want to start with former President Trump's rally in Georgia last night. He repeatedly went after the state's sitting Republican governor, saying that he's very bad for the Republican Party. He also criticized Governor Kemp's wife on social media.

Now, Kemp says Trump should be focused on Democrats, not going after him and his family. Do you agree? SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Yes, well, listen, there's an issue

there. Kemp obviously wanted Trump's endorsement when he was needing his help as governor as -- running for governor.

And he kind of turned his back on President Trump, so there's a personal issue there. But I will tell you, Dana, what people are really focused on and what people really want to know about is what's happening around the world,what's happening right here in our backyard.

[09:45:10]

We know that violent crimes is up 43 percent. We know rape is up 58 percent. We know aggravated assault is up 89 percent. We know that there is -- robberies are up 56 percent, I believe. The world's on fire.

We see the borders wide open and our economy's on death spiral. That's what really people around the country is going to be voting about come November.

BASH: OK, that was a whole lot of things. I just want to push back on one thing.

MULLIN: Yes.

BASH: Crime, generally speaking, has been down recently.

But I just want to follow up on my question about Brian Kemp.

(CROSSTALK)

MULLIN: Dana, according to the latest -- yes, but, according to according to the latest data that just was released, that's the numbers that's come out underneath this Biden administration. So you can't argue with the numbers on that one. I mean, that's what it says.

BASH: Let me...

MULLIN: I just repeated exactly what they never say.

BASH: Let me just follow up on my question, which was about Governor Kemp.

And you know that one of the main reasons why you, as a senator, you're in the minority right now, is because the former president had sort of laid out his grievances against Kemp in 2020, and you ended up losing two seats in Georgia.

Do you think he should continue to go after Kemp?

MULLIN: No, I -- Dana, let me push back on that. I don't -- no, I'd push back on that.

That's not President Trump's fault. Every single politician out there that's running for office or candidate, they're responsible for their own races, not someone else. You got to run your own races. So that has nothing to do with President Trump.

But if you want to dive into the difference between what's happening with President Trump and Governor Kemp, you have to really talk to them about it. I'm not involved in that. But I do know that it was personal to President Trump when Kemp came out and aggressively sought President Trump's endorsement.

BASH: But you're...

MULLIN: And he chose to go away from him when President Trump needed -- needed him.

And let me tell you, I'm a friend and I'm a loyal friend. If my friend needs me, especially if they have done me a favor, I'm going to be all in for them. I'm going to do everything possible to help them. I'm not going to play politics with it. That's why President Trump and I get along so well...

BASH: Even overturn the election?

MULLIN: ... because, when I needed him, he was there for me.

BASH: I mean, what he was asking for Kemp to...

MULLIN: No, that's a total separate issue. That was about elections.

BASH: but that was why he's upset.

(LAUGHTER)

MULLIN: No, but we looked -- but we looked at an endorsement.

No, we -- we're talking about endorsement. We're talking about coming out and supporting him. Kemp came out openly and said he wasn't going to vote for President Trump in the primary. That's what this election is about.

You're talking about something four years ago. Let's talk about what's happening today in this election today. Today, president -- or Governor Kemp came out -- not today, but in this election cycle...

BASH: Yes.

MULLIN: ... Kemp came out and said that he wasn't voting for President Trump in the primary.

That's a problem. Kemp is in office, Kemp is in office because President Trump endorsed him. And his wife and him knows that. And so -- but it -- but the media wants to talk about that. They want to talk about anything but what this Harris/Biden administration has done to our country and to our world and their record.

BASH: I would not be asking you -- Senator, I would not be asking you about this had President Trump brought it up on the stump and then done it in social media.

MULLIN: Sure.

BASH: And just I really want to ask you about the Mideast.

But before I go, I just do want to say that the reason why Governor Kemp didn't endorse Donald Trump in the primary is because Donald Trump tried to overturn what Kemp believes is a free and fair election in his home state.

I want to ask you about the situation in the Middle East. Israelis are bracing for Iran to retaliate after Hamas' top political leader was assassinated in Tehran, and the U.S. is deploying ships and fighter jets to the region.

You are on the Armed Services Committee, as I mentioned. What is your level of concern about the risk of escalation here?

MULLIN: Well, it's already been escalated.

At this point, what they need to know is that it's not peace through appeasement. It's peace through strength. And there should be no daylight between us and Israel right now. Israel had the right to do what they did. They took out the leader of Hamas that was -- that Tehran was aiding and abetting and was harboring, obviously. He was there.

This is no different than us going after Osama bin Laden when he was in Pakistan. This is the organization that attacked them on October 7 that Iran has funded. And we have known that, that they're funding a terrorist organization.

And for them to go out and take the leader out, they have every right to do that. For the Biden/Harris or the Harris/Biden administration to even create any type of daylight between Israel is -- it shows weakness. I'm glad that they're that they're positioning our carriers and our fighters in the right places.

However, they need to know that we're willing to use it and we will immediately, immediately if they go after the -- go after Israel for taking out the Hamas leader.

If President Trump was in office, this wouldn't even be an issue. And I mean that, because they were afraid of President Trump. They knew that he had -- he led peace through strength, not peace of appeasement, and that his word meant something. There would be no daylight between us and Israel if President Trump's administration was in place.

Because there has been a little bit of daylight, you're seeing the snake raise its head, and the snake is Iran. And that head needs to be cut off.

[09:50:04]

BASH: Senator, this week, Donald Trump said he would absolutely pardon January 6 rioters, even those who have been convicted of attacking police officers. You helped barricade the door to the House chamber on January 6. We're

showing a photo of that right now. And you were prepared to fight the rioters if necessary. Would you be comfortable with Trump pardoning people who have been convicted of attacking police officers?

MULLIN: You know, unfortunately, we saw a lot of people on January 6 get caught up in politics. You saw the FBI start calling them domestic terrorists, and they stayed with that for years, for several years after that, January 6.

I mean, the last, three years, they just recently quit using the term. They kept referring them to domestic terrorists. There were some people in there that were doing bad things, but that's not everybody. There were some people that was caught up in the movement and the way they have been prosecuted should seriously be taken and looked at.

But there was aggravators -- agitators, what we call agitators, that, was in that crowd too that, if they were convicted, that's totally different. But these individuals that I feel like they have locked up right now, they were caught up in the political environment. They were thrown into a court system that there was no way they were going to get a fair system.

And I believe that President Trump is going to take a hard look at that. And those that were innocent, they should be -- they should be relooked at and hopefully pardoned by President Trump.

BASH: So you're saying not across the board? Because there have been people convicted...

MULLIN: Not across the board.

BASH: ... of attacking police officers. And that's when he said he was going to do, pardon those people.

MULLIN: Well, I -- I think -- I think President Trump is someone that's going to look at the facts before he does something.

He is someone that really pays attention to details. That's what I appreciate President Trump -- I will tell you that there was -- right after I left the floor there from the picture, I went down and visited the Capitol Police in the triage center.

It was something that I hadn't seen outside of a FOB, a forward operating base, since my time over in Afghanistan. And I will tell you that it was pretty disturbing to see that on the -- at the U.S. Capitol.

So, those individuals that attacked police officers, that were -- that physically attacked police officers, they committed a crime, and they need to pay for that, without question.

BASH: And they should not be pardoned?

MULLIN: Now, I believe 100 percent President Trump -- well, I believe President Trump will take a look at it, and he will do it -- what he feels like his best.

I have my complete faith in President Trump that he pays attention to every little detail, and he will do what's right for the American people.

BASH: And just to put a button on this, it sounds like you're saying you do not think it is right for him to pardon people who were convicted of attacking police officers, your opinion?

MULLIN: Here's what -- no, if they attacked police officers and they physically attacked police officers, I don't think they deserve to be pardoned. I think they need to serve their time.

But there's a lot more individuals that were caught up in this. And, as the FBI and the media wanted to deal with them as domestic terrorists, which was absolutely absurd that they even put that tag on them...

BASH: OK.

MULLIN: But those individuals that were caught up in this political system, was convicted and wrongfully convicted for what they did, and it destroyed their lives, I hope President Trump does everything he can to restore their lives back to normal.

BASH: Senator Markwayne Mullin, thank you so much for joining me this morning. I appreciate it.

MULLIN: Thank you.

BASH: We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:56:57]

BASH: Tonight, go back to one of the most tumultuous years in American history and see the surprising parallels to our current political climate. The CNN original series "1968" airs tonight at 9:00 on CNN.

Thank you so much for spending your Sunday morning with us. Fareed Zakaria picks it up now.